What is wrong with this argument?
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From: SOB) on 31 Mar 2005 13:33 On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 08:09:29 -0800, RainLover <SP-AMB-LOCKrainlover(a)raincity.com> wrote: >So your theory of 'god' is that it exists outside of the universe? God (Supreme Being) is indeed separate from the Universe. Otherwise you would have pantheism, which we reject for a number of reasons, some of which I included in an earlier post to this thread. >are you speaking of the CHRISTIAN god here or some other, metaphysical >concept of "god"? I am speaking of the Supreme Being of Existential Metaphysics. The Christian God exists only in the mind of the faithful, and not in objective reality. >So, in your vision of 'god', it does exist outside of existance >itself. That is not an accurate statement as you phrased it. I do not understand what you mean by "outside of existence (sic) itself". If something is outside of existence then it does not exist so there is no reason to be discussing it because it is not objectively real. >How did you come to possess this knowledge? You start with Physics, and then progress to Metaphysics. You also learn about the epistemological aspects of Physics and Metaphysics which is called the Worldview. Then you decide on which Worldview you are going to adopt when you engage in Physics/Metaphysics. From there the rest is a matter of reasoning. >So, if we leave 'existance' upon our death, where were we all before >our births? Imagine that you are a statue. Before you came into existence there was this slab of marble. The sculptur shaped the marble into a statue of you. That's when you came into existence. Then one day the statue fell over and shattered into a kazillion little pieces. That's when you ceased to exist. Just as there can never be two identical snowflakes, there can never be two identical you. You came into existence as a highly unique being. You will never return because of this uniqueness. Compexity has its advantages and it has its costs. Compexity enabled you to be consciously aware of reality but it also prevents you from being reincarnated. Even identical twins or identical clones do not share the same complexity exactly. -- Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html "If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
From: Dan Listermann on 31 Mar 2005 13:34 "Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)" <sob(a)sob.com> wrote in message news:424c3d21.17128699(a)news-server.houston.rr.com... > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:27:16 -0500, "Dan Listermann" > <dan(a)listermann.com> wrote: > >>> In Existential Metaphysics, God (the Supreme Being) is not a thing. >>> God is an Act. God is the Act of Being, the cause of Existence. > >>It strikes me that you are merely anthropomorphizing the unknown. I >>suppose >>this is OK so long as it does not cause you to do silly and wasteful >>things >>like mumbling to yourself a lot. > > It strikes me that you are merely too dull to understand Existential > Metaphysics. Try not to mumble too much. There are a lot of superstitious things I don't understand. I don't waste time, effort and hope mumbling about them.
From: Dan Listermann on 31 Mar 2005 13:37 "Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)" <sob(a)sob.com> wrote in message news:424c37ef.15799578(a)news-server.houston.rr.com... > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:10:03 -0500, "Dan Listermann" > <dan(a)listermann.com> wrote: > >>"God" is just a theory. > > That all depends on what you mean by "God". I would fully agree with > you in most instances. > > But there is one instance where I do not agree with you, and that is > Existential Metaphysics. There, the "God" is called the Supreme Being. > This Being must exist, or nothing would exist. This God causes > Existence. That is not a theory but a necessity. Unless of course you > do not acknowledge Existence. But that's pretty hard to do because it > results in a contradiction. But there are people who claim that > reality is nothing but contradiction and that Order is an illusion. There you go with the anthrpomorphism again. If you don't / can't know something, it is far better to just admit it rather than to go around giving it silly names and mumbling to it.
From: Dan Listermann on 31 Mar 2005 13:39 "Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)" <sob(a)sob.com> wrote in message news:424c3a58.16415754(a)news-server.houston.rr.com... > On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:11:40 -0500, "Dan Listermann" > <dan(a)listermann.com> wrote: > >>> The human imagination is not capable of causing anything to exist in >>> objective reality. Here we use the word "cause" to mean "efficient >>> cause". > >>Hence the nonexistance of real deities. > > I fully agree with you that dieties constructed subjectively in the > mind do not exist. > > However, that does not mean there is not one entity in objective > reality who is the cause of Existence. In fact the Supreme Being must > exist in order for the Universe to exist. An interesting assumption on your part. Totally unsubstantiated, but interesting. If you don't know the origin of the Universe, just admit it. Don't make up stories to make yourself feel better about it.
From: SOB) on 31 Mar 2005 13:40
On 31 Mar 2005 06:25:01 -0800, "Hector Plasmic" <hec(a)hectorplasmic.com> wrote: >And you're the Final Arbiter of the Things to Know about the Supreme >Being, are you? Snork. Actually I take my direction from philsophers like Thomas Aquinas and Etienne Gilson, and many others. You can read about them in Being and Some Philosophers by Etienne Gilson Paperback 2nd edition (June 1952) Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies ISBN: 088844415X >Be concise and do not drag your feet. No one is dragging any feet around here. I have to answer the questions as they are posted and that takes a while. > >> I am developing this in steps. > >AKA "I'm making it up as I go along." Yeah sure. Here's just a small sampling of the most recent books I have read: +++ Aquinas on Being and Essence: A Translation and Interpretation by Joseph Bobik Paperback Reprint edition (April 1988) Univ of Notre Dame Pr; ISBN: 0268006172 --- Being and Some Philosophers by Etienne Gilson Paperback 2nd edition (June 1952) Pontifical Institute of Mediaeval Studies ISBN: 088844415X --- Thomist Realism and the Critique of Knowledge by Etienne Gilson Paperback (June 1986) Ignatius Press; ISBN: 0898700949 --- Probability Theory: The Logic of Science by E. T. Jaynes Hardcover: 727 Pages Cambridge Univ. Press (2003) ISBN: 0521529712 --- The Fabric of the Cosmos: Space, Time, and the Texture of Reality by Brian Greene Hardcover: 576 pages Knopf; 1st edition (February 10, 2004) ISBN: 0375412883 --- Sync: The Emerging Science of Spontaneous Order By Steven Strogatz Hyperion, New York (2003) 338 pages ISBN: 0786868449 Call: 003.7 S 921 --- Einstein's Universe: Gravity at Work and Play by A. Zee Paperback: 320 pages Oxford University Press (March 15, 2001) ISBN: 0195142853 --- Quantum Field Theory in a Nutshell By A. Zee Princeton U. Press (2003) 518 pages ISBN: 0691010196 --- Darwin's Black Box by Michael J. Behe Paperback - 307 pages (March 1998) Touchstone Books ISBN: 0684834936 --- The Design Inference by William A. Dembski Hardcover (September 1998) Cambridge Univ Pr ISBN: 0521623871 --- The Shaky Game: Einstein, Realism, and the Quantum Theory by Arthur Fine Paperback Reprint edition (October 1988) University of Chicago Press ISBN: 0226249476 --- Schrodinger's Kittens and the Search for Reality Solving the Quantum Mysteries by John Gribbin Paperback (May 1996) Little Brown & Co (Paper) ISBN: 0316328197 --- Search for a Naturalistic World View: Scientific Method and Epistemology by Abner Shimony Hardcover Vol 1 (June 1993) Cambridge Univ Pr --- Search for a Naturalistic World View: Natural Science and Metaphysics by Abner Shimony Paperback Vol 2 (June 1993) Cambridge Univ Pr --- Gravitation and Inertia (Princeton Series in Physics) by Ignazio Ciufolini, John Archibald Wheeler (Editor) Hardcover - 498 pages (July 1995) Princeton Univ Pr; ISBN: 0691033234 --- The Large, the Small and the Human Mind by Roger Penrose Hardcover - 202 pages (April 1997) Cambridge Univ Press --- New Approaches to God: Based on Proofs by Anselm, Aquinas, and Kant by Jules M. Brady Paperback - 136 pages (November 1996) Genesis Pub Co Inc; ISBN: 1886670099 --- Introduction to Quantum Computers by Gennady P. Berman (Editor) Paperback - 200 pages (September 1, 1998) World Scientific Pub Co. ISBN: 9810235496 --- Boojums All the Way Through by N. David Mermin Paperback (April 1990) Cambridge Univ Pr (Trd); ISBN: 0521388805; --- The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene Vintage Books; ISBN: 0375708111 --- Physics from Fisher Information by B. Roy Frieden Hardcover (February 1999) Cambridge Univ Pr ISBN: 052163167X +++ After you get done reading these books, let me know if you still think I am making it up as I go along. -- Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html "If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life." |