OE Is Deleting My NG Headers
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From: Bruce Hagen on 30 Jan 2009 20:31 Why on earth did you decide to crosspost, sorry, I meant simulpost this? -- ~Bruce "D. Spencer Hines" <panther(a)excelsior.com> wrote in message news:efHcc6zgJHA.3812(a)TK2MSFTNGP04.phx.gbl... > "Neil" <nrgins(a)gmail.com> wrote in message > news:6TKgl.19992$ZP4.18041(a)nlpi067.nbdc.sbc.com... > >> So Microsoft is right to FORCE me to keep Outlook Express Lean & Mean and >> not give me a choice? They're right to force me to have to move every >> message I want to save into new folders or have them be deleted against >> my >> will? They're right to delete things from my hard drive even when I tell >> them not to?... > >> Gonna start looking into other newsgroup readers. > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This rampant, peripatetic, poltroonish pogue should have done that long > ago... > > Forte Agent is a much more powerful newsreader than Outlook Express has > ever > pretended to be. > > He should look at it posthaste, without letting the swinging saloon doors > of > this newsgroup clip him in the tuchis on his way out. > > But instead of doing that he prefers to lob hand grenades at Microsoft on > matters wherein they have NOT ERRED, rather on matters where they HAVE > erred.. > > Said pogue thereby exhibits traits of very poor judgment, righteous > conviction and unrelenting ZEAL -- the very worst possible traits, joined > in > pernicious and flatulent combination. > > He is too thick to understand that Outlook Express was designed to > particular requirements existing at the time and place in the space-time > continuum when it was conceived and designed by Software Geniuses Of Their > Day [SOGOTD]. > > "Neil" obviously doesn't have a noodle capable of understanding the > architecture of Outlook Express and its capabilities and limitations -- > driven in large part by hardware constraints and cost-benefit analyses > extant at the time of its conception and development. > > He clearly is a boy, in temperament, character and maturity, even if not > in > age -- and is probably a pimply-face teenager -- high on too much Ritalin, > paint fumes and cleaning fluid. > > "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of > in your philosophy." ---- William Shakespeare [1564-1616] The Tragedy of > Hamlet, Prince of Denmark, Act I, Scene V, Line 166-167 > > Matthew 7:6 > -- > DSH > Lux et Veritas et Libertas > Vires et Honor > Deus Vult >
From: Ron Sommer on 30 Jan 2009 20:50 snipped> > But as a newsgroup user, I'd like to be able to have messages that I've > already stored on my harddrive remain on my harddrive, rather than having > them deleted against my will by the software. If bloat is a problem, then > let ME manage it. Don't force me to have my messages deleted simply > because you're connecting to the server, for crying out loud. > > You and a few others are trying to justify Microsoft's action, like as > though it makes sense. It doesn't make sense to delete messages without > user authorization. It's just a stupid thing that OE does. > OE is doing what a newsreader is supposed to do, keep the messages on your computer synched with the newsgroup server. I don't know of any newsreaders that do not sync with the server. You have not mentioned what news server that you are using. The Microsoft server has a 90 day retention period. -- Ronald Sommer
From: VanguardLH on 30 Jan 2009 21:21 Neil wrote: > "VanguardLH" <V(a)nguard.LH> wrote in message > news:glvf19$av4$1(a)news.motzarella.org... >> PA Bear [MS MVP] wrote: >> >>> Devil's Advocate: If posts were not removed from OE (in its current >>> design >>> state) when they were removed from the server and a heavy newsgroup user >>> never deleted any posts manually, consider how bloated and ripe for >>> corruption the message store would become over time! >> >> How true. There is still the 2GB maximum file size for the .dbx files >> used by OE. That means you cannot store more than 2GB worth of headers >> and bodies in a .dbx file for a newsgroup. Exceeding that threshold >> results in a corrupted .dbx file. So with NNTP servers with extreme >> retention intervals and with a user that downloads all headers and also >> all their bodies then it becomes more likely the 2GB threshold gets >> exceeded. > > So you're saying that the software isn't intelligent enough to just say: > "Hey, you've reached the limit. Can't download anymore. Would you like me to > clear some messages for you"? Instead it has to automatically delete > messages, just to avoid the 2 GB limit??? Ridiculous! > > For what it's worth, all of my newsgroup DBXs are less than 10 MB! Not even > anywhere close to 2 GB!!!!! > > And, again, if it ever did come close, a simple message prompting to delete > old messages would be fine (similar to what Windows does when your hard > drive gets near capacity). There is no "high water" alert for when you approach or exceed the size of the .dbx file. After all, just one post download that includes a huge file could enlarge your 10MB .dbx file to past the 2GB boundary. I wouldn't doubt that there are some huge files in the binary newsgroups, like for videos (e.g., movies). Even if they are split up into multiple posts and you use OE's Combine and Decode, one post sliced up into several posts to recompile the file could chew up a lot of disk space in a big hurry. OE is a dead product. Has been since 2002. Don't expect any functional changes to an unsupported product. Won't happen. No point in beating a dead horse. Either continue using OE if it works for you or switch to something else. However, that won't solve your "syncrhonization" complaint regarding the NNTP server expiring articles (removing them) and your newsreader staying in sync with what articles have been removed. I can't speak positively for all newsreaders but the half dozen, or more, that I've trialed all do this. You need move the posts into your own separate store. In OE, that's just another folder separate of the one under the news server folder tree. You will need to download the bodies for all those archived posts as obviously if you just download headers because it won't be on the server when you later want to read the post. That means a LOT more downloading; i.e., you will have to download the bodies for all posts in all the subscribed newsgroups rather than just those that you choose to read as you peruse the newsgroups. This will fill up the .dbx files a lot faster. If you switch to Windows Live Mail, you might ask in those newsgroups if there is a limit. WLM doesn't use a single .dbx file to hold the contents of posts in a newsgroup (one .dbx file per newsgroup). Instead WLM scatters folders under your %userprofile% for each newsgroup and each e-mail or post is a separate file. So WLM is saving the items in the file system rather than in a file. There is an index file to keep track of what item is in what folder object within WLM. I don't know if there are problems with indexing or total item counts in the index file. I personally do not like WLM creating all the folders and files on my drive. You can ask in the following group if there are any size maximums per newgroup or per news server: microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop Even if the message store was dynamically expanded so it could be an infinite size (up to consuming all the free space on your drives), more items to hold and index means a slower performing newsreader. You need to trim down your stored posts, especially for those with bodies, to keep your newsreader responsive. Would you want to wait many minutes, or perhaps much longer for a huge archive, to access a newsgroup? You see a lot of users trying to emulate Google Groups to archive all those old posts?
From: VanguardLH on 30 Jan 2009 21:36 Neil wrote: > "VanguardLH" <V(a)nguard.LH> wrote in message > news:glvepv$8ju$1(a)news.motzarella.org... >> Neil wrote: >> >>> "VanguardLH" <V(a)nguard.LH> wrote in message >>> news:glu9j6$ph5$1(a)news.motzarella.org... >>>> Bruce Hagen wrote: >>>> >>>>> News servers only keep posts for a period of time. Each server is >>>>> different. >>>>> MSNews keeps them for 90 days. Some servers keep them longer, some only >>>>> for >>>>> a few days. >>>>> >>>>> If you want to keep posts indefinitely, copy them to an OE local >>>>> folder. >>>>> >>>>> Also, make sure that in View | Current View, you have Show All Messages >>>>> and >>>>> Group messages By Conversation checked and nothing else. >>>> >>>> The reason regarding Bruce's reply is that OE remains in sync with the >>>> NNTP server. If the NNTP server expires and drops a post then so, too, >>>> will OE. You need to move items out of the newsgroups folder in OE if >>>> you don't want them to get synchronized (i.e., deleted in OE after the >>>> NNTP server deleted them). >>> >>> Again, I have my synchronization settings set to "No synchronization." >>> And I >>> remember my headers used to stay indefinitely. Once a header was >>> downloaded, >>> it would just stay in the folder. If I hadn't gotten the body of a >>> message, >>> and it scrolled off the server, then, yeah, it was too late (and when I >>> tried to get that expired text, OE would show the header in strikethrough >>> text; but the header would still be there). >>> >>> So what's the point of having a synchronization setting of "no >>> synchronization" if OE is going to synchronize anyway? Doesn't make >>> sense. >>> And, like I said, didn't used to be that way. I remember a point where OE >>> would keep downloaded headers indefinitely. >>> >>> Also, what's the point of having a "Delete news messages X days after >>> being >>> downloaded" if OE is just going to delete them anyway, regardless of the >>> setting. Again, doesn't make sense. >> >> The "synchronization" you mention only relates to reading posts while OE >> is offline. It determines if OE is going to retrieve nothing new, just >> headers for new posts, or the headers and bodies of new posts. You can >> then put OE offline to read them (or read them while you are >> disconnected from the network). That is NOT the synchronization that I >> spoke of which is OE keeping in sync with what posts are currently >> available on the server. >> >> If OE gets out of sync, you will see articles listed in OE but when you >> try to read them you get "message no longer available on server" error. >> That is because the server expired the article and removed it. > > Yes, I understand that. I've gotten that many times. No problem. I don't > expect to be able to get messages that are no longer available. > > What I'm saying is: AFTER a message body is ALREADY downloaded, it shouldn't > be deleted from my hard drive without my permission. > >> There is >> an overview headers database that gets updated at intervals, like maybe >> just once per day, but the article expire during the day. That means >> the overview database and the article database can get out of sync. You >> end up with "bad article number" errors when your newsreader tries >> retrieve an article that was found in the overview database (when you >> retrieved just headers) but the article no longer exists in the article >> database. When the overview database gets updated then it is in sync >> with the article database. That's another type of synchronization >> problem. When an article is removed from the server, and after the >> overview database gets updated to get in sync with the articles, then OE >> uses the overview headers to figure out when an article is no longer >> available on the server, and then OE syncs itself. That's the sync that >> I was talking about. > > All I know is that I used to download headers, and headers would stay in the > newsgroup folder. I would download message bodies, and they would stay in > the folder as well. (Or, more precisely, in the DBX.) There was never a > problem with messages that were already downloaded. OE was able to just keep > them on the hard drive, and add to them as new messages became available. > > Then there came a point where OE changed and started deleting old messages > and headers. But it didn't used to do that. > > So whatever your reason is that OE has to delete old messages and headers, I > say: no it doesn't. It used to not do that, and there's no reason to do it. > >> >> The sync you were talking about has nothing to do with staying in sync >> with the server. It has to do with reading articles while offline. >> "Synchronization" covers many different types of synchronization. Maybe >> "cache headers or articles or both for offline reading" would have been >> a better description albeit much longer description for the >> "Synchronization" option in OE. Many users had or still have to pay by >> the minute of connect time on a dial-up connection. They don't want to >> waste time wandering around dozens of newsgroups hunting down the >> articles they want to read and then retrieving them and then disconnect >> to reduce their cost (which is the minutes deducted from their monthly >> quota). Instead then have OE retrieve all headers and bodies for all >> posts in all the newsgroups they visit (or maybe use rules to find just >> particular posts). It often takes less time to do that so less minutes >> are deducted from the user's connect time quota. >> >> Regardless of your "synchronization" settings in OE (which have to do >> with retrieving the headers and bodies so they are available even when >> offline), OE will synchronize what articles it keeps with those that are >> still available on the server whenever you connect OE to the server. > > And that's what I'm saying is wrong. And OE used to not do that. And it was > fine. > > If something is downloaded to my hard drive, it should stay there. > >> So >> despite you caching a local copy to read off- or online, it will >> disappear from OE if it disappears from the server. That's why you need >> to move the articles to a different "holding" folder that is not the >> newsgroups folder that syncs with the server. You break the sync link >> so the article remains in that holding folder. > > Again, I shouldn't have to do that. And OE didn't previously require that. > It's a ridiculous thing. > > Gonna start looking into other newsgroup readers. You keep ignoring what others have mentioned. How long OE retains an article in its local database depends on how long the news server keeps that same article. While I haven't mentioned it by name but rather described the expiry process on the server, others have named it: retention period. If your newsgroups provider reduced their retention period then old articles disappear from the server and also disappear from OE to stay in sync with the server. Contact your newsgroups provider to ask if they reduced their retention interval. It is also possible they rebuilt their article database (and the accompanying overview database). That could result in changing the article numbers of the posts that were on that NNTP server. When the newsgroups provider does this, you have to reset the newsgroup (i.e., clear out all the old locally cached copies of the posts) and revisit the newsgroup to redownload all those posts. I use the Motzarella free NNTP server. A couple weeks back, they lost a hard disk and had to rebuild their article and overview databases (by peering with the other NNTP servers). This took over a day to complete. After that rebuild, every Motzarella user had to reset their newsgroup to wipe out all the old locally cached records and re-retrieve them all over again. Before that rebuild completed, lots of users complained that newsgroups were empty, some had a severely reduced number of posts, or they would get "bad article number" when trying to retrieve a post's body for which they previously only downloaded its header. No matter what newsreader the user used, they all had to do the reset. So you might have to reset the newsgroups and rebuild your local copies of the posts. Right-click on a newsgroup folder, Properties, and reset the folder. Then revisit the folder to retrieve all those posts again.
From: Robert Aldwinckle on 30 Jan 2009 21:35
"Neil" <nrgins(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:mEAgl.16535$c45.7806(a)nlpi065.nbdc.sbc.com... > Again, I have my synchronization settings set to "No synchronization." If you never use a synchronize command the synchronization settings are meaningless to you. > And I remember my headers used to stay indefinitely. That has nothing to do with a synchronization command. It depends on what the NNTP server is telling OE in its headers. If you had headers staying indefinitely it just means that the server wasn't changing the start number in its 211 replies to a group command. .... > So what's the point of having a synchronization setting of "no > synchronization" if OE is going to synchronize anyway? Don't confuse two different results with two different actions. ; ) > Doesn't make sense. It does make sense. Apart from differences only available by using a synchronize command the main thing that you need to be aware of is the Get 300 headers... option and the fact that its value is used to do an automatic Get Next 300... every time you enter a newsgroup when you are in a Working Online state. If you don't want that to happen, either don't enter that newsgroup or enter it with Work Offline set. If you don't have the Get next 300... option checked the automatic Get next done for you has the equivalent effect of a Synchronize Newsgroup command done while the Synchronize settings are Headers Only. > And, like I said, didn't used to be that way. I remember a point where OE > would keep downloaded headers indefinitely. Was this with a different NNTP server? In any case servers change how they act over time and they may also be set up to serve different newsgroups differently. > > Also, what's the point of having a "Delete news messages X days after being > downloaded" if OE is just going to delete them anyway, regardless of the > setting. Again, doesn't make sense. Makes perfect sense if someone only wants to keep a weeks worth of posts in his cache instead of a much larger number that the server might support. HTH Robert Aldwinckle --- |