Ping Larkin
in [Design]
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From: Charlie E. on 28 Oct 2009 12:56 On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:16:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Charlie E. wrote: >> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:00:28 +0000, Martin Brown >> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >> >>> Joerg wrote: >>>> ChrisQ wrote: >>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>> On the news a few days ago: They had to close the "environmentally >>>>>> compliant" new wing of a school because of H1N1. The old (real) >>>>>> buildings exhibited little problems because you could open windows, >>>>>> "hallways" were outdoors, etc. The newfangled building was >>>>>> essentially a giant petri dish and so the kids there got sick. So >>>>>> much for progress. >>> That is a weakness of a lot of the no external opening windows designs. >>> Sick building syndrome as the formaldehyde and other junk from the >>> furniture and carpets accumulates in a poorly ventilated space. There is >>> no excuse for not having fresh air heated by outgoing stale air though. >> <snip> >> >> My home here (three years new) has not only double pane windows, it >> also has plastic sealing in all the exterior walls. In a 70 mph wind, >> there are only a few places where I can feel a draft - one by a wall >> outlet, and the other around my back door. The door flexes enough to >> release the weather stripping! >> >> But, my HVAC system also has a timer that causes it to go on with the >> fan only at least every so often, and the system has an intake to the >> outside for fresh air. ... > > >I've always wondered where to get those. It would need to be before the >filter or have its own filter. This whole concept of whole house fans is >so strange, they rely on venting out instead of in so all the dust and >pollen is sucked into the house. In Australia there are (IIRC) systems >that blow in instead, makes a lot more sense. Never seen that in the US. > >[...] In our case, there is a little electronics unit in the attic that connects to the fan lead in the thermostat, and to a damper control in the outside air vent. The outside air duct goes from a vent in the roof to the manifold in the hallway which also has return air ducts from the two smaller 'bedrooms' (my wife's office, and my lab!) When it kicks in (like right now!) it opens the ducts and turns on the fans. Since the manifold is before the filter, the air gets filtered before being circulated through the house. I know that whole house fans were usually venting types, because the idea was to bring in cooler outside air through all the windows, and vent the hot air near the ceiling into the attic and out through the vents there. Charlie
From: Charlie E. on 28 Oct 2009 12:59 On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:16:21 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Jim Thompson wrote: >> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:16:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Charlie E. wrote: >>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:00:28 +0000, Martin Brown >>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>> ChrisQ wrote: >>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>> On the news a few days ago: They had to close the "environmentally >>>>>>>> compliant" new wing of a school because of H1N1. The old (real) >>>>>>>> buildings exhibited little problems because you could open windows, >>>>>>>> "hallways" were outdoors, etc. The newfangled building was >>>>>>>> essentially a giant petri dish and so the kids there got sick. So >>>>>>>> much for progress. >>>>> That is a weakness of a lot of the no external opening windows designs. >>>>> Sick building syndrome as the formaldehyde and other junk from the >>>>> furniture and carpets accumulates in a poorly ventilated space. There is >>>>> no excuse for not having fresh air heated by outgoing stale air though. >>>> <snip> >>>> >>>> My home here (three years new) has not only double pane windows, it >>>> also has plastic sealing in all the exterior walls. In a 70 mph wind, >>>> there are only a few places where I can feel a draft - one by a wall >>>> outlet, and the other around my back door. The door flexes enough to >>>> release the weather stripping! >>>> >>>> But, my HVAC system also has a timer that causes it to go on with the >>>> fan only at least every so often, and the system has an intake to the >>>> outside for fresh air. ... >>> >>> I've always wondered where to get those. It would need to be before the >>> filter or have its own filter. This whole concept of whole house fans is >>> so strange, they rely on venting out instead of in so all the dust and >>> pollen is sucked into the house. In Australia there are (IIRC) systems >>> that blow in instead, makes a lot more sense. Never seen that in the US. >>> >>> [...] >> >> What does it matter, push or suck? As long as the filter is on the >> inlet side? I think, actually, suction is more efficient. >> > >For a whole house fan you need to have a huge opening, meaning at least >one of the big glass sliders. If you don't then you'll have stuff flying >about. Unfortunately it ain't practical to have a 3ft*6ft filter tacked >to the screen door even if you managed to find one ;-) > >I think this whole technology is rather stone-age. Same with swamp >coolers. All you can buy is those big and ugly boxes. Nobody makes a >flat one with a nice cartridge filter. Progress in that domain seems to >be as sluggish as it is with pellet stoves. Well, I saw an evaporative assisted air conditioner unit, where it sprays water on the coils, that would be especially usefull out here in the desert. But, evaporative coolers need to be pretty big. The concept is that there is not too fast a flow through the mats to provide time for evaporation to occur and give the necessary cooling. Surface area means added throughput. Charlie
From: Jim Thompson on 28 Oct 2009 13:02 On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:56:10 -0700, Charlie E. <edmondson(a)ieee.org> wrote: >On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:16:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >wrote: > >>Charlie E. wrote: >>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:00:28 +0000, Martin Brown >>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>> >>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>> ChrisQ wrote: >>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>> On the news a few days ago: They had to close the "environmentally >>>>>>> compliant" new wing of a school because of H1N1. The old (real) >>>>>>> buildings exhibited little problems because you could open windows, >>>>>>> "hallways" were outdoors, etc. The newfangled building was >>>>>>> essentially a giant petri dish and so the kids there got sick. So >>>>>>> much for progress. >>>> That is a weakness of a lot of the no external opening windows designs. >>>> Sick building syndrome as the formaldehyde and other junk from the >>>> furniture and carpets accumulates in a poorly ventilated space. There is >>>> no excuse for not having fresh air heated by outgoing stale air though. >>> <snip> >>> >>> My home here (three years new) has not only double pane windows, it >>> also has plastic sealing in all the exterior walls. In a 70 mph wind, >>> there are only a few places where I can feel a draft - one by a wall >>> outlet, and the other around my back door. The door flexes enough to >>> release the weather stripping! >>> >>> But, my HVAC system also has a timer that causes it to go on with the >>> fan only at least every so often, and the system has an intake to the >>> outside for fresh air. ... >> >> >>I've always wondered where to get those. It would need to be before the >>filter or have its own filter. This whole concept of whole house fans is >>so strange, they rely on venting out instead of in so all the dust and >>pollen is sucked into the house. In Australia there are (IIRC) systems >>that blow in instead, makes a lot more sense. Never seen that in the US. >> >>[...] > >In our case, there is a little electronics unit in the attic that >connects to the fan lead in the thermostat, and to a damper control in >the outside air vent. The outside air duct goes from a vent in the >roof to the manifold in the hallway which also has return air ducts >from the two smaller 'bedrooms' (my wife's office, and my lab!) When >it kicks in (like right now!) it opens the ducts and turns on the >fans. Since the manifold is before the filter, the air gets filtered >before being circulated through the house. > >I know that whole house fans were usually venting types, because the >idea was to bring in cooler outside air through all the windows, and >vent the hot air near the ceiling into the attic and out through the >vents there. > >Charlie Predicted high for today... 65�F... must be global Slowman slop ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | "Somebody had to build the ceiling... before Michelangelo could go to work." - John Ratzenberger http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Somebody_had_to_build_the_ceiling.pdf
From: Joerg on 28 Oct 2009 13:05 Charlie E. wrote: > On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:16:21 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> Jim Thompson wrote: >>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:16:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Charlie E. wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:00:28 +0000, Martin Brown >>>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>> ChrisQ wrote: >>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>> On the news a few days ago: They had to close the "environmentally >>>>>>>>> compliant" new wing of a school because of H1N1. The old (real) >>>>>>>>> buildings exhibited little problems because you could open windows, >>>>>>>>> "hallways" were outdoors, etc. The newfangled building was >>>>>>>>> essentially a giant petri dish and so the kids there got sick. So >>>>>>>>> much for progress. >>>>>> That is a weakness of a lot of the no external opening windows designs. >>>>>> Sick building syndrome as the formaldehyde and other junk from the >>>>>> furniture and carpets accumulates in a poorly ventilated space. There is >>>>>> no excuse for not having fresh air heated by outgoing stale air though. >>>>> <snip> >>>>> >>>>> My home here (three years new) has not only double pane windows, it >>>>> also has plastic sealing in all the exterior walls. In a 70 mph wind, >>>>> there are only a few places where I can feel a draft - one by a wall >>>>> outlet, and the other around my back door. The door flexes enough to >>>>> release the weather stripping! >>>>> >>>>> But, my HVAC system also has a timer that causes it to go on with the >>>>> fan only at least every so often, and the system has an intake to the >>>>> outside for fresh air. ... >>>> I've always wondered where to get those. It would need to be before the >>>> filter or have its own filter. This whole concept of whole house fans is >>>> so strange, they rely on venting out instead of in so all the dust and >>>> pollen is sucked into the house. In Australia there are (IIRC) systems >>>> that blow in instead, makes a lot more sense. Never seen that in the US. >>>> >>>> [...] >>> What does it matter, push or suck? As long as the filter is on the >>> inlet side? I think, actually, suction is more efficient. >>> >> For a whole house fan you need to have a huge opening, meaning at least >> one of the big glass sliders. If you don't then you'll have stuff flying >> about. Unfortunately it ain't practical to have a 3ft*6ft filter tacked >> to the screen door even if you managed to find one ;-) >> >> I think this whole technology is rather stone-age. Same with swamp >> coolers. All you can buy is those big and ugly boxes. Nobody makes a >> flat one with a nice cartridge filter. Progress in that domain seems to >> be as sluggish as it is with pellet stoves. > > Well, I saw an evaporative assisted air conditioner unit, where it > sprays water on the coils, that would be especially usefull out here > in the desert. > I've seen that a few years ago. Finally it has sunk in how to make them more efficient, progress in the HVAC biz is so sloooow. > But, evaporative coolers need to be pretty big. The concept is that > there is not too fast a flow through the mats to provide time for > evaporation to occur and give the necessary cooling. Surface area > means added throughput. > Sure. But the ones I check out all work the same way: HUGE squirrel cage sucking air through a slowly revolving felt pad. Why can't there be a slow but flat propeller running instead and the felt pad have a pump that oozes on water from the top? -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Charlie E. on 28 Oct 2009 13:24
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:05:25 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Charlie E. wrote: >> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:16:21 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:16:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Charlie E. wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:00:28 +0000, Martin Brown >>>>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>> ChrisQ wrote: >>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On the news a few days ago: They had to close the "environmentally >>>>>>>>>> compliant" new wing of a school because of H1N1. The old (real) >>>>>>>>>> buildings exhibited little problems because you could open windows, >>>>>>>>>> "hallways" were outdoors, etc. The newfangled building was >>>>>>>>>> essentially a giant petri dish and so the kids there got sick. So >>>>>>>>>> much for progress. >>>>>>> That is a weakness of a lot of the no external opening windows designs. >>>>>>> Sick building syndrome as the formaldehyde and other junk from the >>>>>>> furniture and carpets accumulates in a poorly ventilated space. There is >>>>>>> no excuse for not having fresh air heated by outgoing stale air though. >>>>>> <snip> >>>>>> >>>>>> My home here (three years new) has not only double pane windows, it >>>>>> also has plastic sealing in all the exterior walls. In a 70 mph wind, >>>>>> there are only a few places where I can feel a draft - one by a wall >>>>>> outlet, and the other around my back door. The door flexes enough to >>>>>> release the weather stripping! >>>>>> >>>>>> But, my HVAC system also has a timer that causes it to go on with the >>>>>> fan only at least every so often, and the system has an intake to the >>>>>> outside for fresh air. ... >>>>> I've always wondered where to get those. It would need to be before the >>>>> filter or have its own filter. This whole concept of whole house fans is >>>>> so strange, they rely on venting out instead of in so all the dust and >>>>> pollen is sucked into the house. In Australia there are (IIRC) systems >>>>> that blow in instead, makes a lot more sense. Never seen that in the US. >>>>> >>>>> [...] >>>> What does it matter, push or suck? As long as the filter is on the >>>> inlet side? I think, actually, suction is more efficient. >>>> >>> For a whole house fan you need to have a huge opening, meaning at least >>> one of the big glass sliders. If you don't then you'll have stuff flying >>> about. Unfortunately it ain't practical to have a 3ft*6ft filter tacked >>> to the screen door even if you managed to find one ;-) >>> >>> I think this whole technology is rather stone-age. Same with swamp >>> coolers. All you can buy is those big and ugly boxes. Nobody makes a >>> flat one with a nice cartridge filter. Progress in that domain seems to >>> be as sluggish as it is with pellet stoves. >> >> Well, I saw an evaporative assisted air conditioner unit, where it >> sprays water on the coils, that would be especially usefull out here >> in the desert. >> > >I've seen that a few years ago. Finally it has sunk in how to make them >more efficient, progress in the HVAC biz is so sloooow. > > >> But, evaporative coolers need to be pretty big. The concept is that >> there is not too fast a flow through the mats to provide time for >> evaporation to occur and give the necessary cooling. Surface area >> means added throughput. >> > >Sure. But the ones I check out all work the same way: HUGE squirrel cage >sucking air through a slowly revolving felt pad. Why can't there be a >slow but flat propeller running instead and the felt pad have a pump >that oozes on water from the top? Hmmm... All the units here are a box with three or more fixed pads, about 2" thick, with a reservoir at the bottom, wtih a pump that feeds a tube above the pads to wet them. Around here you need to clean it out from the filtered sand and dirt about once a month, and replace the pads every couple of years from the encrusted minerals. Charlie |