Ping Larkin
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From: Jim Thompson on 28 Oct 2009 13:32 On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:24:23 -0700, Charlie E. <edmondson(a)ieee.org> wrote: >On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:05:25 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >wrote: > >>Charlie E. wrote: >>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:16:21 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:16:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Charlie E. wrote: >>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:00:28 +0000, Martin Brown >>>>>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>> ChrisQ wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On the news a few days ago: They had to close the "environmentally >>>>>>>>>>> compliant" new wing of a school because of H1N1. The old (real) >>>>>>>>>>> buildings exhibited little problems because you could open windows, >>>>>>>>>>> "hallways" were outdoors, etc. The newfangled building was >>>>>>>>>>> essentially a giant petri dish and so the kids there got sick. So >>>>>>>>>>> much for progress. >>>>>>>> That is a weakness of a lot of the no external opening windows designs. >>>>>>>> Sick building syndrome as the formaldehyde and other junk from the >>>>>>>> furniture and carpets accumulates in a poorly ventilated space. There is >>>>>>>> no excuse for not having fresh air heated by outgoing stale air though. >>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My home here (three years new) has not only double pane windows, it >>>>>>> also has plastic sealing in all the exterior walls. In a 70 mph wind, >>>>>>> there are only a few places where I can feel a draft - one by a wall >>>>>>> outlet, and the other around my back door. The door flexes enough to >>>>>>> release the weather stripping! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But, my HVAC system also has a timer that causes it to go on with the >>>>>>> fan only at least every so often, and the system has an intake to the >>>>>>> outside for fresh air. ... >>>>>> I've always wondered where to get those. It would need to be before the >>>>>> filter or have its own filter. This whole concept of whole house fans is >>>>>> so strange, they rely on venting out instead of in so all the dust and >>>>>> pollen is sucked into the house. In Australia there are (IIRC) systems >>>>>> that blow in instead, makes a lot more sense. Never seen that in the US. >>>>>> >>>>>> [...] >>>>> What does it matter, push or suck? As long as the filter is on the >>>>> inlet side? I think, actually, suction is more efficient. >>>>> >>>> For a whole house fan you need to have a huge opening, meaning at least >>>> one of the big glass sliders. If you don't then you'll have stuff flying >>>> about. Unfortunately it ain't practical to have a 3ft*6ft filter tacked >>>> to the screen door even if you managed to find one ;-) >>>> >>>> I think this whole technology is rather stone-age. Same with swamp >>>> coolers. All you can buy is those big and ugly boxes. Nobody makes a >>>> flat one with a nice cartridge filter. Progress in that domain seems to >>>> be as sluggish as it is with pellet stoves. >>> >>> Well, I saw an evaporative assisted air conditioner unit, where it >>> sprays water on the coils, that would be especially usefull out here >>> in the desert. >>> >> >>I've seen that a few years ago. Finally it has sunk in how to make them >>more efficient, progress in the HVAC biz is so sloooow. >> >> >>> But, evaporative coolers need to be pretty big. The concept is that >>> there is not too fast a flow through the mats to provide time for >>> evaporation to occur and give the necessary cooling. Surface area >>> means added throughput. >>> >> >>Sure. But the ones I check out all work the same way: HUGE squirrel cage >>sucking air through a slowly revolving felt pad. Why can't there be a >>slow but flat propeller running instead and the felt pad have a pump >>that oozes on water from the top? > >Hmmm... >All the units here are a box with three or more fixed pads, about 2" >thick, with a reservoir at the bottom, wtih a pump that feeds a tube >above the pads to wet them. Around here you need to clean it out from >the filtered sand and dirt about once a month, and replace the pads >every couple of years from the encrusted minerals. > >Charlie Mine was stainless steel, 6000CFM, pads on all four sides, down-draft, recirculating pump plus a controlled bleed-off to minimize the calcium build-up. I built my own stand and ductwork routing the air flow thru an exterior wall, under a raised closet floor into the interior A/C ductwork when a slide was pulled out ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | "Somebody had to build the ceiling... before Michelangelo could go to work." - John Ratzenberger http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Somebody_had_to_build_the_ceiling.pdf
From: Joerg on 28 Oct 2009 13:58 Charlie E. wrote: > On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:05:25 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> Charlie E. wrote: >>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 16:16:21 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:16:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Charlie E. wrote: >>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:00:28 +0000, Martin Brown >>>>>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>> ChrisQ wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On the news a few days ago: They had to close the "environmentally >>>>>>>>>>> compliant" new wing of a school because of H1N1. The old (real) >>>>>>>>>>> buildings exhibited little problems because you could open windows, >>>>>>>>>>> "hallways" were outdoors, etc. The newfangled building was >>>>>>>>>>> essentially a giant petri dish and so the kids there got sick. So >>>>>>>>>>> much for progress. >>>>>>>> That is a weakness of a lot of the no external opening windows designs. >>>>>>>> Sick building syndrome as the formaldehyde and other junk from the >>>>>>>> furniture and carpets accumulates in a poorly ventilated space. There is >>>>>>>> no excuse for not having fresh air heated by outgoing stale air though. >>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My home here (three years new) has not only double pane windows, it >>>>>>> also has plastic sealing in all the exterior walls. In a 70 mph wind, >>>>>>> there are only a few places where I can feel a draft - one by a wall >>>>>>> outlet, and the other around my back door. The door flexes enough to >>>>>>> release the weather stripping! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> But, my HVAC system also has a timer that causes it to go on with the >>>>>>> fan only at least every so often, and the system has an intake to the >>>>>>> outside for fresh air. ... >>>>>> I've always wondered where to get those. It would need to be before the >>>>>> filter or have its own filter. This whole concept of whole house fans is >>>>>> so strange, they rely on venting out instead of in so all the dust and >>>>>> pollen is sucked into the house. In Australia there are (IIRC) systems >>>>>> that blow in instead, makes a lot more sense. Never seen that in the US. >>>>>> >>>>>> [...] >>>>> What does it matter, push or suck? As long as the filter is on the >>>>> inlet side? I think, actually, suction is more efficient. >>>>> >>>> For a whole house fan you need to have a huge opening, meaning at least >>>> one of the big glass sliders. If you don't then you'll have stuff flying >>>> about. Unfortunately it ain't practical to have a 3ft*6ft filter tacked >>>> to the screen door even if you managed to find one ;-) >>>> >>>> I think this whole technology is rather stone-age. Same with swamp >>>> coolers. All you can buy is those big and ugly boxes. Nobody makes a >>>> flat one with a nice cartridge filter. Progress in that domain seems to >>>> be as sluggish as it is with pellet stoves. >>> Well, I saw an evaporative assisted air conditioner unit, where it >>> sprays water on the coils, that would be especially usefull out here >>> in the desert. >>> >> I've seen that a few years ago. Finally it has sunk in how to make them >> more efficient, progress in the HVAC biz is so sloooow. >> >> >>> But, evaporative coolers need to be pretty big. The concept is that >>> there is not too fast a flow through the mats to provide time for >>> evaporation to occur and give the necessary cooling. Surface area >>> means added throughput. >>> >> Sure. But the ones I check out all work the same way: HUGE squirrel cage >> sucking air through a slowly revolving felt pad. Why can't there be a >> slow but flat propeller running instead and the felt pad have a pump >> that oozes on water from the top? > > Hmmm... > All the units here are a box with three or more fixed pads, about 2" > thick, with a reservoir at the bottom, wtih a pump that feeds a tube > above the pads to wet them. Around here you need to clean it out from > the filtered sand and dirt about once a month, and replace the pads > every couple of years from the encrusted minerals. > Yeah, but I bet they are the usual ugly boxes of about 4ft by 4ft by 4ft. That's all you can buy here for serious swamp coolers. If you can place them hidden like Jim could, ok, but on our house they would cause a "trailer park appeal". -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Jim Thompson on 28 Oct 2009 15:32 On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:05:25 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: [snip] > >Sure. But the ones I check out all work the same way: HUGE squirrel cage >sucking air through a slowly revolving felt pad. Why can't there be a >slow but flat propeller running instead and the felt pad have a pump >that oozes on water from the top? What is more efficient _sucking_ AND _blowing_? Squirrel cage beats prop hands down. And there _is_ a pump to recirculate the water, a float valve, and a waste line to keep mineral deposits from getting out-of-hand. ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | "Somebody had to build the ceiling... before Michelangelo could go to work." - John Ratzenberger http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Somebody_had_to_build_the_ceiling.pdf
From: Joerg on 28 Oct 2009 16:11 Jim Thompson wrote: > On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 10:05:25 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > > [snip] >> Sure. But the ones I check out all work the same way: HUGE squirrel cage >> sucking air through a slowly revolving felt pad. Why can't there be a >> slow but flat propeller running instead and the felt pad have a pump >> that oozes on water from the top? > > What is more efficient _sucking_ AND _blowing_? Squirrel cage beats > prop hands down. > Sure, but makes the things look unwieldy and ugly. Air flow is slow, unlike a whole house fan (which is blades, BTW) you don't need tons of air. > And there _is_ a pump to recirculate the water, a float valve, and a > waste line to keep mineral deposits from getting out-of-hand. > Most don't even have an automatic drain function after longer shut-downs. Forget to clean it and some legionaires disease might fester. I've seen bottoms of swamp coolers where stuff was living in there. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Jim Thompson on 28 Oct 2009 16:40
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 13:28:12 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Jim Thompson wrote: [snip] >> >> My coolers had all the features you claim you haven't seen, except for >> an automatic drain function. >> > >Aha. And why did it not have that function where it's purpose would be >so obvious? And why is that so obvious? How would you define that without a microprocessor ?:-) > > >> Don't you always lose if you don't maintain your equipment? When I >> had coolers, I changed out the pads every year, and flushed and >> covered them for "winter". >> > >You and I are engineering minds, meaning we have check lists like pilots >do, we do the regular PM stuff, watch out for danger, our fire alarm >batteries will be changed Saturday and not one day later, etc. Joe >Sixpack does not do that. I don't either, mine are hard-wired, cabling inside of fireproof conduit, sound off on power failure... lead acid back-up... connected to a monitoring company. > > >> Since you seem to not know all that much about coolers... all better >> brands of cooler pumps automatically "waste" some water to keep the >> mineral levels under control. And I had a valve on mine to allow a >> weekly "full-flush" ;-) >> > >I've looked at enough coolers to know that, for example, they do not do >an automatic and complete waste after 24h or whatever of inoperation. Takes electronics. >But they should. What is so difficult about that? Cuz grampa's cooler >didn't have it either? Probably. Grandpa knew to go out and open the drain valve, and sneak a swig of whiskey when no one was looking ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | "Somebody had to build the ceiling... before Michelangelo could go to work." - John Ratzenberger http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Somebody_had_to_build_the_ceiling.pdf |