Ping Larkin
in [Design]
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From: Joerg on 29 Oct 2009 20:01 krw wrote: > On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:10:28 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> > wrote: > >> krw wrote: >>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:16:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Charlie E. wrote: >>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:00:28 +0000, Martin Brown >>>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>> ChrisQ wrote: >>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>> On the news a few days ago: They had to close the "environmentally >>>>>>>>> compliant" new wing of a school because of H1N1. The old (real) >>>>>>>>> buildings exhibited little problems because you could open windows, >>>>>>>>> "hallways" were outdoors, etc. The newfangled building was >>>>>>>>> essentially a giant petri dish and so the kids there got sick. So >>>>>>>>> much for progress. >>>>>> That is a weakness of a lot of the no external opening windows designs. >>>>>> Sick building syndrome as the formaldehyde and other junk from the >>>>>> furniture and carpets accumulates in a poorly ventilated space. There is >>>>>> no excuse for not having fresh air heated by outgoing stale air though. >>>>> <snip> >>>>> >>>>> My home here (three years new) has not only double pane windows, it >>>>> also has plastic sealing in all the exterior walls. In a 70 mph wind, >>>>> there are only a few places where I can feel a draft - one by a wall >>>>> outlet, and the other around my back door. The door flexes enough to >>>>> release the weather stripping! >>>>> >>>>> But, my HVAC system also has a timer that causes it to go on with the >>>>> fan only at least every so often, and the system has an intake to the >>>>> outside for fresh air. ... >>>> I've always wondered where to get those. It would need to be before the >>>> filter or have its own filter. This whole concept of whole house fans is >>>> so strange, they rely on venting out instead of in so all the dust and >>>> pollen is sucked into the house. In Australia there are (IIRC) systems >>>> that blow in instead, makes a lot more sense. Never seen that in the US. >>> I put one in my NY house. It worked. We didn't have AC so between >>> the whole house fan and pool we survived. ;-) The key to the whole >>> house fan was blowing the attic out in the evening and cooling the >>> house down. We then closed it up during the day. If you're going to >>> have windows open at all you'll have pollen in the house. I prefer >>> windows open, if possible. I certainly don't want the dust and >>> insulation from the attic in the house! >>> >> All you'd have to do there is lay a duct to the end of the attic, then >> put the fan and a filter there. But nobody makes them :-( > > I'm not getting the picture. The idea is to change the air in both > the house and attic, quickly, at night when it's cool and then shut > everything down during the day. > Depending on the architecture you may also need an attic fan which is readily available at the usual HW store. We don't because of cathedral ceilings. >> I was thinking about a 6" or 8" inline fan and making my own filter. But >> I doubt that's going to be even close in terms of required airflow. > > I doubt it. Any filter worth a damn is going to be big. > I know. That's why I was hoping to find a decent integrated unit. Cut hole, put in, wire up, connect large duct. But nope :-( > BTW, I wouldn't have one of these beasts here in AL. Too humid. Very different out here. Summers are typically bone-dry. Not quite like Arizona but almost. Occasionally a sea breeze wafts in but that cools us down so no need for fancy cooling schemes when that happens. -- Regards, Joerg http://www.analogconsultants.com/ "gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam. Use another domain or send PM.
From: Jim Thompson on 29 Oct 2009 20:10 On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:57:50 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >Jim Thompson wrote: >> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 14:51:11 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:37:09 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:28:50 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Jim Thompson wrote: >>>>>>>> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:10:28 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> krw wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:16:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Charlie E. wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:00:28 +0000, Martin Brown >>>>>>>>>>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ChrisQ wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On the news a few days ago: They had to close the "environmentally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compliant" new wing of a school because of H1N1. The old (real) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> buildings exhibited little problems because you could open windows, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "hallways" were outdoors, etc. The newfangled building was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> essentially a giant petri dish and so the kids there got sick. So >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> much for progress. >>>>>>>>>>>>> That is a weakness of a lot of the no external opening windows designs. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sick building syndrome as the formaldehyde and other junk from the >>>>>>>>>>>>> furniture and carpets accumulates in a poorly ventilated space. There is >>>>>>>>>>>>> no excuse for not having fresh air heated by outgoing stale air though. >>>>>>>>>>>> <snip> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> My home here (three years new) has not only double pane windows, it >>>>>>>>>>>> also has plastic sealing in all the exterior walls. In a 70 mph wind, >>>>>>>>>>>> there are only a few places where I can feel a draft - one by a wall >>>>>>>>>>>> outlet, and the other around my back door. The door flexes enough to >>>>>>>>>>>> release the weather stripping! >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> But, my HVAC system also has a timer that causes it to go on with the >>>>>>>>>>>> fan only at least every so often, and the system has an intake to the >>>>>>>>>>>> outside for fresh air. ... >>>>>>>>>>> I've always wondered where to get those. It would need to be before the >>>>>>>>>>> filter or have its own filter. This whole concept of whole house fans is >>>>>>>>>>> so strange, they rely on venting out instead of in so all the dust and >>>>>>>>>>> pollen is sucked into the house. In Australia there are (IIRC) systems >>>>>>>>>>> that blow in instead, makes a lot more sense. Never seen that in the US. >>>>>>>>>> I put one in my NY house. It worked. We didn't have AC so between >>>>>>>>>> the whole house fan and pool we survived. ;-) The key to the whole >>>>>>>>>> house fan was blowing the attic out in the evening and cooling the >>>>>>>>>> house down. We then closed it up during the day. If you're going to >>>>>>>>>> have windows open at all you'll have pollen in the house. I prefer >>>>>>>>>> windows open, if possible. I certainly don't want the dust and >>>>>>>>>> insulation from the attic in the house! >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> All you'd have to do there is lay a duct to the end of the attic, then >>>>>>>>> put the fan and a filter there. But nobody makes them :-( >>>>>>>> Never made your own ductwork? When I was a kid in Jr. High and High >>>>>>>> School, sheet metal shop was a requirement for all males (before equal >>>>>>>> rights... the girls had to take Home Economics ;-) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sure I did. But you can't get the proper fans with filters up front. I >>>>>>> mean a kind that would pass inspection. >>>>>> You're putting the filters in the wrong place. >>>>>> >>>>>> (1) EXHAUST blower in attic blowing out an external vent. >>>>>> >>>>>> (2) Electrically-controlled louver to connect to interior AC ductwork, >>>>>> sucking house air out into attic, then to outside world. >>>>>> >>>>>> (3) Inlet to interior of house from outside, somewhere (me, I might >>>>>> just cut a "window" in the side of the house ;-) outfitted with >>>>>> filter(s). >>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I was thinking about a 6" or 8" inline fan and making my own filter. But >>>>>>>>> I doubt that's going to be even close in terms of required airflow. >>>>>>>> Since this would be at mild weather and/or attic exchange rate, I'd >>>>>>>> guess a 1000-2000CFM squirrel cage would do it. I'd probably use 4 >>>>>>>> 20"x30" A/C filters (in an array). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> Pleated filters in an array for outside air intake would get expensive. >>>>>>> At least around here. >>>>>> So use cheapy fiberglass. (Pleated might not pass enough air anyway.) >>>>>> >>>>> So, essentially then you made a whole house fan with a hole in the house :-) >>>>> >>>>> Problem with that, huge: Someone goes out the patio door, only closes >>>>> screen or leaves it all open. Speaking in electrical terms the >>>>> transconductance of that screen is much higher than that of your hole, >>>>> meaning most of the filter gets bypassed, meaning yellowish greenish >>>>> pollen everywhere. >>>> All my back yard doors are "pool-proof". Get over it, you just don't >>>> know how to make it work ;-) >>>> >>> We have three dogs now. The two older ones know how to open doors and >>> the young one is a smart cookie, always attentively watching the others. >> >> I'm dog-less at the moment. I may have to change that... my yard man >> says some large creature is now pooping in the northeast corner... >> coyote or raccoon :-( >> > >We have a dude with 8-point antlers clippiclopping through the yards >here, along with his entourage. And the occasional mountain lion or bear. At our 4th of July party, our 20+ guests were stunned that SIX great-horned owls decided to park in my back yard trees and a couple even decided to cool off in my lawn sprinklers... hilariously spreading their wings and laying down in the wet grass ;-) ...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 | "Somebody had to build the ceiling... before Michelangelo could go to work." - John Ratzenberger http://analog-innovations.com/SED/Somebody_had_to_build_the_ceiling.pdf
From: krw on 29 Oct 2009 20:14 On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 17:01:39 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> wrote: >krw wrote: >> On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 11:10:28 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >> wrote: >> >>> krw wrote: >>>> On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:16:29 -0700, Joerg <invalid(a)invalid.invalid> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Charlie E. wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 23:00:28 +0000, Martin Brown >>>>>> <|||newspam|||@nezumi.demon.co.uk> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>> ChrisQ wrote: >>>>>>>>> Joerg wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On the news a few days ago: They had to close the "environmentally >>>>>>>>>> compliant" new wing of a school because of H1N1. The old (real) >>>>>>>>>> buildings exhibited little problems because you could open windows, >>>>>>>>>> "hallways" were outdoors, etc. The newfangled building was >>>>>>>>>> essentially a giant petri dish and so the kids there got sick. So >>>>>>>>>> much for progress. >>>>>>> That is a weakness of a lot of the no external opening windows designs. >>>>>>> Sick building syndrome as the formaldehyde and other junk from the >>>>>>> furniture and carpets accumulates in a poorly ventilated space. There is >>>>>>> no excuse for not having fresh air heated by outgoing stale air though. >>>>>> <snip> >>>>>> >>>>>> My home here (three years new) has not only double pane windows, it >>>>>> also has plastic sealing in all the exterior walls. In a 70 mph wind, >>>>>> there are only a few places where I can feel a draft - one by a wall >>>>>> outlet, and the other around my back door. The door flexes enough to >>>>>> release the weather stripping! >>>>>> >>>>>> But, my HVAC system also has a timer that causes it to go on with the >>>>>> fan only at least every so often, and the system has an intake to the >>>>>> outside for fresh air. ... >>>>> I've always wondered where to get those. It would need to be before the >>>>> filter or have its own filter. This whole concept of whole house fans is >>>>> so strange, they rely on venting out instead of in so all the dust and >>>>> pollen is sucked into the house. In Australia there are (IIRC) systems >>>>> that blow in instead, makes a lot more sense. Never seen that in the US. >>>> I put one in my NY house. It worked. We didn't have AC so between >>>> the whole house fan and pool we survived. ;-) The key to the whole >>>> house fan was blowing the attic out in the evening and cooling the >>>> house down. We then closed it up during the day. If you're going to >>>> have windows open at all you'll have pollen in the house. I prefer >>>> windows open, if possible. I certainly don't want the dust and >>>> insulation from the attic in the house! >>>> >>> All you'd have to do there is lay a duct to the end of the attic, then >>> put the fan and a filter there. But nobody makes them :-( >> >> I'm not getting the picture. The idea is to change the air in both >> the house and attic, quickly, at night when it's cool and then shut >> everything down during the day. >> > >Depending on the architecture you may also need an attic fan which is >readily available at the usual HW store. We don't because of cathedral >ceilings. We have cathedral ceilings and an attic fan. The ceilings still have an attic above them (the roof is *really* pitched high). ;-) I'd rather have a ridge vents than an attic fane, though. ;-( >>> I was thinking about a 6" or 8" inline fan and making my own filter. But >>> I doubt that's going to be even close in terms of required airflow. >> >> I doubt it. Any filter worth a damn is going to be big. >> > >I know. That's why I was hoping to find a decent integrated unit. Cut >hole, put in, wire up, connect large duct. But nope :-( > > >> BTW, I wouldn't have one of these beasts here in AL. Too humid. > > >Very different out here. Summers are typically bone-dry. Not quite like >Arizona but almost. Occasionally a sea breeze wafts in but that cools us >down so no need for fancy cooling schemes when that happens. Most use heat pumps year round here. We haven't had the house open more than a few days so far this fall. It was quite warm late this fall and it's been raining since. Last year was beautiful this time of year. This year, not so much.
From: Michael A. Terrell on 29 Oct 2009 21:29 Joerg wrote: > > Michael A. Terrell wrote: > > Joerg wrote: > >> Michael A. Terrell wrote: > >>> Joerg wrote: > >>>> Michael A. Terrell wrote: > >>>>> Joerg wrote: > >>>>>> Easy with a mechanical timer if needed. But that's what the CD4060 was > >>>>>> invented for. Maybe that's too difficult for a HVAC mfg ... > >>>>> Mechanical timers ignore power outages. > >>>>> > >>>> You can make both do either/or. Mech times with li'l tic-toc movement in > >>>> there, got one of those here. A CD4060 can be run off a large cap for a > >>>> looong time. If designed right, and that's the trick. > >>> > >>> I prefer the mechanical design, because of the high number of > >>> lightning strikes around here. If you want to sign off on a CMOS > >>> design, go ahead. Its your reputation, not mine. > >>> > >> I did a while ago. Most of it is installed in your neck of the woods. > >> Works great, it's through two seasons now. One must understand the > >> mechanisms, paths, spectra and remedial action when it comes to lightning. > > > > > > Tell that to people who lose homes and businesses to lightning. > > > > Because builders and codes in the US fail to provide for proper > lightning arresters and we build houses from lumber. So, you've never seen lightning hit a poured concrete building? Pieces of it scattered all over the place and exposed, partially vaporized rebar. That building did have a wood roof, but the lightning struck the walls because of the required rebar and damp concrete. I suppose you'll tell me that never happens in Europe, because they are so much smarter and that the laws of physics don't apply there? .. -- The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary!
From: Michael A. Terrell on 29 Oct 2009 21:32
krw wrote: > > Most use heat pumps year round here. We haven't had the house open > more than a few days so far this fall. It was quite warm late this > fall and it's been raining since. Last year was beautiful this time > of year. This year, not so much. I've only had one day cool enough to open all the doors and windows this fall. -- The movie 'Deliverance' isn't a documentary! |