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From: Chris Pyrgas on 11 Sep 2009 19:31 Hi Ginny, Jamal, > Agreed about not allowing the period as an alternate send operator. I > don't know the technical reason why that wasn't considered. In my opinion, the fact that c# uses the dot for so many different things, makes code difficult to read and understand. Please consider this c# code: One.Two.Three.Four = 5; This can be interpreted as many different things, like one of the following, expressed in vulcan code: One.Two.Three.Four := 5 // "Four" static property of class "One.Two.Three" One.Two.Three:Four := 5 // "Four" field of "Three" static property of class "One.Two" One.Two:Three:Four := 5 // "Four" field of "Three" property of "Two" static property of class "One" One:Two:Thre:Four := 5 // Local var "One" etc... I think you'll agree that the vulcan code is much more unambiguous..Actually I would have personally used a different operator in vulcan, instead of ".", even for calling static methods/properties, fortunately I didn't have to make that decision :-) regards, Chris > > -- > > Ginny Caughey > www.wasteworks.com > > > > > "Jamal" <vodotnet(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:n2zqm.1969$Jd7.1860(a)nwrddc02.gnilink.net... >> Willie, >> >> I saw your earlier post in this regard, however, it is not smooth as it >> is with VB.NET or C#. Anyway, these are new application so VO or Vulcan >> code is not going to be used. >> >> After programming in VB.NET and C# for some time, I find it errating that >> I have to remember that the send operater in VO is : and not the . , and >> Vulcan carries on the same tradition. Grafx should have really followed >> what is out there as main stream as it had the chance to start right. >> >> Jamal >> >> "Willie Moore" <williem(a)wmconsulting.com> wrote in message >> news:h8ed1t$3g5$1(a)aioe.org... >> Jamal, >> >> If you take your business logic (already in VO), move it to Vulcan, you >> can >> very easily use it from an ASP.Net application. On my web site, I have a >> file in the downloads section called inetwithVulcan.zip. It has the same >> web >> site done with aspx pages (vb.net calling Vulcan assemblies) and another >> set >> with MasterPages that has the entire site written in Vulcan (except the >> aspx >> part). But even the aspx pages inherit from Vulcan classes (no vb.net). >> >> Regards, >> Willie >> >> >> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >> signature database 4417 (20090911) __________ >> >> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >> >> http://www.eset.com >> >> >>
From: Ginny Caughey on 11 Sep 2009 19:50 Hi Chris, No I don't agree. If my C# code isn't difficult to understand, why should similar Vulcan code be? In any case it seems like the compiler could have figured it out if the dot operator were allowed as an optional alternate send operator. (After all, Vulcan does optionally allow array elements beginning with zero, unlike VO, and that strikes me as potentially much more confusing.) Obviously the colon would need to continue to be supported for backward compatibility with VO. But that's all ancient history now and neither of us has to take the heat for the decision. ;-) -- Ginny Caughey www.wasteworks.com "Chris Pyrgas" <chris(a)grafxsoft.dot.com> wrote in message news:h8emkq$35j$1(a)mouse.otenet.gr... > Hi Ginny, Jamal, > >> Agreed about not allowing the period as an alternate send operator. I >> don't know the technical reason why that wasn't considered. > > In my opinion, the fact that c# uses the dot for so many different things, > makes code difficult to read and understand. Please consider this c# code: > > One.Two.Three.Four = 5; > > This can be interpreted as many different things, like one of the > following, > expressed in vulcan code: > > One.Two.Three.Four := 5 // "Four" static property of class "One.Two.Three" > One.Two.Three:Four := 5 // "Four" field of "Three" static property of > class > "One.Two" > One.Two:Three:Four := 5 // "Four" field of "Three" property of "Two" > static > property of class "One" > One:Two:Thre:Four := 5 // Local var "One" etc... > > I think you'll agree that the vulcan code is much more > unambiguous..Actually > I would have personally used a different operator in vulcan, instead of > ".", > even for calling static methods/properties, fortunately I didn't have to > make that decision :-) > > regards, > Chris > > >> >> -- >> >> Ginny Caughey >> www.wasteworks.com >> >> >> >> >> "Jamal" <vodotnet(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:n2zqm.1969$Jd7.1860(a)nwrddc02.gnilink.net... >>> Willie, >>> >>> I saw your earlier post in this regard, however, it is not smooth as it >>> is with VB.NET or C#. Anyway, these are new application so VO or Vulcan >>> code is not going to be used. >>> >>> After programming in VB.NET and C# for some time, I find it errating >>> that I have to remember that the send operater in VO is : and not the . >>> , and Vulcan carries on the same tradition. Grafx should have really >>> followed what is out there as main stream as it had the chance to start >>> right. >>> >>> Jamal >>> >>> "Willie Moore" <williem(a)wmconsulting.com> wrote in message >>> news:h8ed1t$3g5$1(a)aioe.org... >>> Jamal, >>> >>> If you take your business logic (already in VO), move it to Vulcan, you >>> can >>> very easily use it from an ASP.Net application. On my web site, I have a >>> file in the downloads section called inetwithVulcan.zip. It has the same >>> web >>> site done with aspx pages (vb.net calling Vulcan assemblies) and another >>> set >>> with MasterPages that has the entire site written in Vulcan (except the >>> aspx >>> part). But even the aspx pages inherit from Vulcan classes (no vb.net). >>> >>> Regards, >>> Willie >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature database 4417 (20090911) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >
From: Jamal on 12 Sep 2009 01:03 Chris, Let me say that I find the Vulcan way is more confusing. It is even worse if I have to translate (for whatever reason) C# or VB.NET to Vulcan. Some may say "you don't have to", but let's say I want to. With C# and VB.NET, intellisense makes writing code so much easier. I just type the . and know what to expect or what is available without too much guessing on whether I should use the colon or dot. In my opinion, despite the reasoning for VO compatiblity, it was a bad decision to continue using the colon as the send operator. I made this known (in VOPS) early when Vulcan was still in it infancy. This is one of the main reasons, I am not so fond of Vulcan. It may be a big re-ingineering job of the compiler, but using the dot as a send operator will go a long way in making Vulcan's future brigther. Jamal "Chris Pyrgas" <chris(a)grafxsoft.dot.com> wrote in message news:h8emkq$35j$1(a)mouse.otenet.gr... > Hi Ginny, Jamal, > >> Agreed about not allowing the period as an alternate send operator. I >> don't know the technical reason why that wasn't considered. > > In my opinion, the fact that c# uses the dot for so many different things, > makes code difficult to read and understand. Please consider this c# code: > > One.Two.Three.Four = 5; > > This can be interpreted as many different things, like one of the > following, > expressed in vulcan code: > > One.Two.Three.Four := 5 // "Four" static property of class "One.Two.Three" > One.Two.Three:Four := 5 // "Four" field of "Three" static property of > class > "One.Two" > One.Two:Three:Four := 5 // "Four" field of "Three" property of "Two" > static > property of class "One" > One:Two:Thre:Four := 5 // Local var "One" etc... > > I think you'll agree that the vulcan code is much more > unambiguous..Actually > I would have personally used a different operator in vulcan, instead of > ".", > even for calling static methods/properties, fortunately I didn't have to > make that decision :-) > > regards, > Chris > > >> >> -- >> >> Ginny Caughey >> www.wasteworks.com >> >> >> >> >> "Jamal" <vodotnet(a)yahoo.com> wrote in message >> news:n2zqm.1969$Jd7.1860(a)nwrddc02.gnilink.net... >>> Willie, >>> >>> I saw your earlier post in this regard, however, it is not smooth as it >>> is with VB.NET or C#. Anyway, these are new application so VO or Vulcan >>> code is not going to be used. >>> >>> After programming in VB.NET and C# for some time, I find it errating >>> that I have to remember that the send operater in VO is : and not the . >>> , and Vulcan carries on the same tradition. Grafx should have really >>> followed what is out there as main stream as it had the chance to start >>> right. >>> >>> Jamal >>> >>> "Willie Moore" <williem(a)wmconsulting.com> wrote in message >>> news:h8ed1t$3g5$1(a)aioe.org... >>> Jamal, >>> >>> If you take your business logic (already in VO), move it to Vulcan, you >>> can >>> very easily use it from an ASP.Net application. On my web site, I have a >>> file in the downloads section called inetwithVulcan.zip. It has the same >>> web >>> site done with aspx pages (vb.net calling Vulcan assemblies) and another >>> set >>> with MasterPages that has the entire site written in Vulcan (except the >>> aspx >>> part). But even the aspx pages inherit from Vulcan classes (no vb.net). >>> >>> Regards, >>> Willie >>> >>> >>> __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus >>> signature database 4417 (20090911) __________ >>> >>> The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. >>> >>> http://www.eset.com >>> >>> >>> >
From: E®!k /!sser on 12 Sep 2009 06:38 Hi Gabriel, Nice to see you are still around! You are right. We are actors in a soapopera. Good to see we still have an audience! <bg> Your suggestion to make VO an open source project does have advantages imo. It will end the lies and half truths, most likeley spread by Grafx because of marketing reasons. On the other side we would need to do all thing it ourself so we do not have a party to moan about...<G> But what would give an Open source VO us extra? Most of the libraries are in the SDK, so you can change/enhance whatever you like and publish it. We also have the SDK for the repository and VOPP shows us what could be done with it. So there would only be a few things that would give an open-source VO extra: the compiler, the runtime and perhaps the RDD's ( you can already write your own RDD if you feel the need.) Same goes for Vulcan. Using reflector you have the sourcecode of many of the libraries. Erik "Gabriel" <gabrielvdk(a)gmail.com> schreef in bericht news:925ecf9f-b427-4c3e-8b72-35f422db47c9(a)k19g2000yqc.googlegroups.com... Hi All, About 3 years ago I left Marti IT (of which Marc Verkade is the owner) after ca. 3 years of working for them. For me Marti meant my first object oriented programming experience, and for me that first experience was in VO. Marc always directed me to this newsgroup where you could (and I presume still can) always count on a quick and correct response. So during my time I�ve browsed this newsgroup very frequently and I must say I�ve always been very surprised about the length of some discussions and the messages posted in those discussions. Especially since I left Marti and decided to work as a independent entrepreneur building websites and software (www.amteam.nl, a little sneaky marketing ;)). Because, where do all you guys (and girl, Ginny) find the time to get in discussions like this one, or better put: what am I doing wrong that I normally don�t have the time to participate in a discussion like this, certainly not with the average length of the posts that are put here. But, that said, please continue doing so. Yesterday Marc was at our office and I told him about the way I still monitor this newsgroup. And this is how, picture this: I take a bottle of coke, some popcorn and then I open this newsgroup searching for topics with more than 30 responses. That way I find threads like this one, these threads are much better than any soap broadcoasted on tv, or any reality program for that matter. Trust me, I enjoy this a lot. Because since 3 years, when I left Marti and thereby also VO, not much has changed. People complain here about how it�s not maintained actively enough, Ginny stands up for Brian and tries to give it a positive twist, it�s the same story over and over again. What I was thinking is that, with such a lively community, why not bring VO open source? I mean the progress on VO might be slow (or death?), the community seems to be very much alive and willing to make it a better product. So unite, bring some money together, give Brian the money, ask for the code and continue yourselves. Just cut the time you use for this newsgroup in half and use one half of it to contribute to the VO open source project. I think you guys together could build a GREAT niche language with which you can all work till your retirement. I mean, it�s only my two cents, but I think it could work :) And if you wonder why I posted this, and where I found the time, I felt obliged too. After the amount of entertainment you all gave me, the least I could to was thank you all for it! Now I return back to my spectator seat, so you can always be sure, at least 1 person is watching you :) Cheers & thanks, Gabri�l On 7 sep, 10:11, "Marc Verkade [Marti IT]" <marcatM(a)rtidotnl> wrote: > Hey, > Plz read inbetween > > -- > Grtz, Marc > > "E�!k \/!sser" <nos...(a)nospam.com> schreef in > berichtnews:7gjrqvF2p06b8U1(a)mid.individual.net... > > > Hi Marc, > > > Fortunataly we all differ! For me it is an aspect of attitude. If you > > break things you fix it. And you do it right away without asking money > > for > > it. > > I agree with that. As said I do not know what issues were on SP2 that were > showtoppers. I think VOPS did get fixes. Since about a 100 bugs were fixed > and perhaps 5 new bugs were introduced, the overall score was positive for > SP2 IMHO. I guess Grafx did not see the new introduced bugs as > showstoppers, > only as bugs, or did not get clean and lean samples showing the bugs. As > said, VO will never be bug-free. > > > I am sorry to read the Vulcan compiler still is slow. I have made > > comments > > on that from the beginning. At that time it was because of 'not > > optimised > > yet' and 'still contains debug code' > > This time is because the huge amount of files (8000) and has nothing to do > with the compiler itself, but with the way the transpoorter was generating > files. This is enhanced now so the amount of files is smaller and thus the > compiler is faster. > > > But I do agree having an app like Bake-it compile in Vulcan is an > > achievement! > > > I most likely will not transport my apps (at least the ones that are not > > datadriven) to .NET. They lean heavy on third party products like > > vo2ado, > > bBrowser and Report Pro and I do not want to use those products in .NET > > as > > there are ( better than Report Pro, cheaper than vo2ado, fancier than > > bBrowser) alternatives. > > And most of my code in those apps is written several years ago. (read: > > could be written better...) > > So when I need to port those apps towards .NET i prefer to redesign them > > towards my datadriven framework written in C#. > > But I know this works for me as I have several smaller apps out there > > and > > not one or two big ones. Another aspect is that I do not use DBF files > > anymore for 'ages' > > I know it toook much effort but am happy for you that you managed to step > into the future with your apps. > Greets, Marc > > > > > regards, > > > Erik > > > "Marc Verkade [Marti IT]" <marcatM(a)rtidotnl> schreef in bericht > >news:4aa38294$0$765$58c7af7e(a)news.kabelfoon.nl... > >> Hai Erik, > > >> Plz read inbetween. > > >> "E�!k \/!sser" <nos...(a)nospam.com> schreef in bericht > >>news:7gf8o2F2per1mU1(a)mid.individual.net... > >>> Hi Marc, > > >>>> Ehh, we do test real-life apps with every build of VO! > >>>> Sure we find issues, but most of them just annoying and no > >>>> showstoppers. > >>>> After our apps run fine and after initial install of the VOPS build, > >>>> compiling and testing, most of the VOPS builds made it to our > >>>> customers! > > >>> OK. Now what I do not understand is this. > >>> If you and Willie and Wolfgang and Meinhard and all the other people > >>> Robert knows about are testing every build with real-life apps, how is > >>> it possible that the public SP2 release has many obvious bugs > >>> discovered > >>> very shortly after the release? > >>> Do not get me wrong, I do not doubt what you and the others wrote, I > >>> just wonder what went wrong and what has been done to prevent this > >>> going > >>> wrong again with SP3. > > >> As I said, we are using more or less plain VO. This results that we do > >> not enter the borders of VO where anomalies occur like the stuff from > >> Powerneet (Alwin). Furthermore we do not test all VO, only the stuff we > >> use. Have warnings as errors on and yes, now and thenm run into > >> something > >> strange which can be fixed with a quick work-around from Robert or a > >> fix > >> from VOPS. And sometimes, late minute changes did break stuff like the > >> debugger values not showing in the 'Watch' variables which was very > >> unfortunate and made it into the final build while it was not there in > >> all earlier builds. > > >> If the installed base is so small as VO, the software will never be > >> fully > >> tested. In our office the changes and issues of the developers are > >> tested > >> by the helpdesk. Even that is too much I guess because there is too > >> little money to pay a fulltime tester by Grafx. This means that we > >> always > >> will have bugs, but then, as I said, the last few years Grafx is very > >> responsive in helping people with real issues at VOPS. > > >> There are lot's of issues, probably another men's year work, but are > >> they > >> all showstoppers? No. Not all. Some of them will be and I know for sure > >> that they wil be fixed when you provide a sample and grab Roberts > >> attention with a clear mail regarding your issue. And if there is a > >> workaroun, I can imagine that the issue loses some of the urgenthess as > >> do bugs with workarounds in our software. > > >> So... No I cannot garantee that SP3 is bugfree, but I can say that it > >> is > >> another step making VO better. > > >> The focus of Vulcan lies in the compatibility of VO. As said I was very > >> amazed that Bake-it was actually running in Vulcan. We do use C#, and > >> now > >> we can integrate our C# wrapper apps into Bake-it. That alone makes > >> investigating Vulcan for us a worthy thing to do let alone the wide > >> variety of C# stuff we can integrate into our apps. > > >> We still have to do work in our Bake-it and wait for buiild 1.60 of > >> Vulcan because the enormous amount of DBServer's was causing very long > >> compile times. !.60 makes the amount of files drop from 8000 to 1200 > >> files and thus making compiling faster. But we are now at the point > >> that > >> we can start transporter, be busy for an hour or 2 to fix some strange > >> things in our code (where lot's of that stuff comes from 3rd party) and > >> have it running in Vulcan. You know Bake-it is huge! > > >>>> Last week we compiled Bake-it in Vulcan. Offcoarse some things must > >>>> be > >>>> done but it ran, inclusing most 3rd party stuff like bBrowser, Fab, > >>>> SEMenu etc.. Since Bake-it is a 350+ DBF's and 1000+ window app, I > >>>> never imagined that that was possible at all. We are not there yet, > >>>> but > >>>> Bake-it running as a Vulcan app will be the starting point for a full > >>>> migration to .Net in the coming months. We now have the possibility > >>>> to > >>>> slowly inlcude the numerous .Net controls and make Bake-it ready for > >>>> the next years to come and stay competitive. > > >>> Great! Good for you! > >>> Just wondering as I have not seen any recent Vulcan releases, what > >>> .Net > >>> controls do you have in mind? Can you put a .Net control on a > >>> datawindow? And do you have a visual editor to do that? > > >> I have seen great stuff from DevExpress and Syncfusion. Fact is that > >> our > >> competitors are being very busy renewing their software and I even > >> might > >> say that our focus on our Cash-it cashers is causing that new potential > >> customers are even considering buying the competitors stuff. With some > >> focus on Bake-it and some neat and nice interface updates, I think we > >> can > >> manage that threat. > > >> Our focus now lies at the transportation, but Hybrid VO / WinForms > >> windows are possible now. Furthermore you can change VO forms in VS2008 > >> as DBServers in the DBServer editor and other editors. Chris an Robert > >> are very busy wit Vulcan nowadays. After VO compatibility is finished, > >> i > >> am sure they'll shift focus on 'real' .Net extensions. Since we will > >> use > >> Bake-it for testing every new Vulcan build we will see what the future > >> will bring. The alternative, a total rewrite in ASP or C# does not > >> sound > >> that happy to me now... > > >>>> I do not understand why you are bashing like this here. It must be > >>>> frustration and I do not think ventilating frustration this way is > >>>> the > >>>> way to go. We all know that VO is not a major language and we all > >>>> know > >>>> that it is difficult to make money with a development language, but > >>>> Grafx is trying to serve the VO community and keep the development > >>>> tool > >>>> and language alive for the people like us which make their money with > >>>> it. And I am thankfull for that! People are different and Brian and I > >>>> are very different and I would have done things very different than > >>>> he, > >>>> but then, I was not brave enough to become the owner of VO! This is > >>>> the > >>>> way he goes and I respect him for taking this responsibility! > > >>>> For me Grafx has shown the last few years that they listen to > >>>> customers > >>>> and if there are major issues and showstoppers, they are helping and > >>>> fix them. This has been different in the past, but this is exactly > >>>> where VOPS shows it's value since it exists! 99$ is about 70 euro's! > >>>> Only one diner at a mediocre restaurant. Software is never perfect > >>>> and > >>>> yes, SP3 is containing bugs for sure, but then, so does your software > >>>> and mine! > > >>> I do not know about you, but if I release an update and the customers > >>> suffers from bugs, I fix them right away. > >>> As you know I have been a VOPS member for three years so I do know > >>> what > >>> I am talking about if I mention lies, broken promises, half truths, > >>> manipulations etc. > > >> Yep, you are right, and they do within their powers. There have been > >> quite a few quick fixes after a VOPS release for various people with > >> various issues. Part of not being that responsive sometimes had to do > >> with the framework where VO was build in. Now even VO itself is created > >> in VS2008 and RObert has everything in place to release a new DLL or > >> version within minutes. I have seen that since he was fixing a VSS bug > >> right next to me while I was waiting for Bake-it to transport to > >> Vulcan. > > >> I know that communication of Grafx is sometimes problematic. You know > >> that I have complained a lot too in the past! But than, it is software > >> and I too have to break promises when I hit a wall or have to deal with > >> issues that cannot be foreseen like the mess Robert found when turning > >> all warnings off when he first compiled the code he got from CA. > >> Somethimes it simply takes time, sometimes it takes more... I am in the > >> stage > > ... > > meer lezen �
From: Willie Moore on 15 Sep 2009 22:30
Jamal, Just to let you know, RP3 for Vulcan has full PDF support. It is accessible from VO as a COM object just as it was when it was the VO version. Regards, Willie __________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 4427 (20090915) __________ The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus. http://www.eset.com |