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From: Marc Verkade [Marti IT] on 6 Sep 2009 05:25 Hai Erik, Plz read inbetween. "E�!k \/!sser" <nospam(a)nospam.com> schreef in bericht news:7gf8o2F2per1mU1(a)mid.individual.net... > Hi Marc, > >> Ehh, we do test real-life apps with every build of VO! >> Sure we find issues, but most of them just annoying and no showstoppers. >> After our apps run fine and after initial install of the VOPS build, >> compiling and testing, most of the VOPS builds made it to our customers! > > OK. Now what I do not understand is this. > If you and Willie and Wolfgang and Meinhard and all the other people > Robert knows about are testing every build with real-life apps, how is it > possible that the public SP2 release has many obvious bugs discovered very > shortly after the release? > Do not get me wrong, I do not doubt what you and the others wrote, I just > wonder what went wrong and what has been done to prevent this going wrong > again with SP3. As I said, we are using more or less plain VO. This results that we do not enter the borders of VO where anomalies occur like the stuff from Powerneet (Alwin). Furthermore we do not test all VO, only the stuff we use. Have warnings as errors on and yes, now and thenm run into something strange which can be fixed with a quick work-around from Robert or a fix from VOPS. And sometimes, late minute changes did break stuff like the debugger values not showing in the 'Watch' variables which was very unfortunate and made it into the final build while it was not there in all earlier builds. If the installed base is so small as VO, the software will never be fully tested. In our office the changes and issues of the developers are tested by the helpdesk. Even that is too much I guess because there is too little money to pay a fulltime tester by Grafx. This means that we always will have bugs, but then, as I said, the last few years Grafx is very responsive in helping people with real issues at VOPS. There are lot's of issues, probably another men's year work, but are they all showstoppers? No. Not all. Some of them will be and I know for sure that they wil be fixed when you provide a sample and grab Roberts attention with a clear mail regarding your issue. And if there is a workaroun, I can imagine that the issue loses some of the urgenthess as do bugs with workarounds in our software. So... No I cannot garantee that SP3 is bugfree, but I can say that it is another step making VO better. The focus of Vulcan lies in the compatibility of VO. As said I was very amazed that Bake-it was actually running in Vulcan. We do use C#, and now we can integrate our C# wrapper apps into Bake-it. That alone makes investigating Vulcan for us a worthy thing to do let alone the wide variety of C# stuff we can integrate into our apps. We still have to do work in our Bake-it and wait for buiild 1.60 of Vulcan because the enormous amount of DBServer's was causing very long compile times. !.60 makes the amount of files drop from 8000 to 1200 files and thus making compiling faster. But we are now at the point that we can start transporter, be busy for an hour or 2 to fix some strange things in our code (where lot's of that stuff comes from 3rd party) and have it running in Vulcan. You know Bake-it is huge! > > >> Last week we compiled Bake-it in Vulcan. Offcoarse some things must be >> done but it ran, inclusing most 3rd party stuff like bBrowser, Fab, >> SEMenu etc.. Since Bake-it is a 350+ DBF's and 1000+ window app, I never >> imagined that that was possible at all. We are not there yet, but Bake-it >> running as a Vulcan app will be the starting point for a full migration >> to .Net in the coming months. We now have the possibility to slowly >> inlcude the numerous .Net controls and make Bake-it ready for the next >> years to come and stay competitive. > > Great! Good for you! > Just wondering as I have not seen any recent Vulcan releases, what .Net > controls do you have in mind? Can you put a .Net control on a datawindow? > And do you have a visual editor to do that? I have seen great stuff from DevExpress and Syncfusion. Fact is that our competitors are being very busy renewing their software and I even might say that our focus on our Cash-it cashers is causing that new potential customers are even considering buying the competitors stuff. With some focus on Bake-it and some neat and nice interface updates, I think we can manage that threat. Our focus now lies at the transportation, but Hybrid VO / WinForms windows are possible now. Furthermore you can change VO forms in VS2008 as DBServers in the DBServer editor and other editors. Chris an Robert are very busy wit Vulcan nowadays. After VO compatibility is finished, i am sure they'll shift focus on 'real' .Net extensions. Since we will use Bake-it for testing every new Vulcan build we will see what the future will bring. The alternative, a total rewrite in ASP or C# does not sound that happy to me now... > >> I do not understand why you are bashing like this here. It must be >> frustration and I do not think ventilating frustration this way is the >> way to go. We all know that VO is not a major language and we all know >> that it is difficult to make money with a development language, but Grafx >> is trying to serve the VO community and keep the development tool and >> language alive for the people like us which make their money with it. And >> I am thankfull for that! People are different and Brian and I are very >> different and I would have done things very different than he, but then, >> I was not brave enough to become the owner of VO! This is the way he goes >> and I respect him for taking this responsibility! > >> For me Grafx has shown the last few years that they listen to customers >> and if there are major issues and showstoppers, they are helping and fix >> them. This has been different in the past, but this is exactly where VOPS >> shows it's value since it exists! 99$ is about 70 euro's! Only one diner >> at a mediocre restaurant. Software is never perfect and yes, SP3 is >> containing bugs for sure, but then, so does your software and mine! > > I do not know about you, but if I release an update and the customers > suffers from bugs, I fix them right away. > As you know I have been a VOPS member for three years so I do know what I > am talking about if I mention lies, broken promises, half truths, > manipulations etc. Yep, you are right, and they do within their powers. There have been quite a few quick fixes after a VOPS release for various people with various issues. Part of not being that responsive sometimes had to do with the framework where VO was build in. Now even VO itself is created in VS2008 and RObert has everything in place to release a new DLL or version within minutes. I have seen that since he was fixing a VSS bug right next to me while I was waiting for Bake-it to transport to Vulcan. I know that communication of Grafx is sometimes problematic. You know that I have complained a lot too in the past! But than, it is software and I too have to break promises when I hit a wall or have to deal with issues that cannot be foreseen like the mess Robert found when turning all warnings off when he first compiled the code he got from CA. Somethimes it simply takes time, sometimes it takes more... I am in the stage that I accepted that Grafx has a small team and it is difficult to make and keep promises when people keep demanding that promises are made and that it takes time to do stuff. Have you ever imagined what stuff is on Brians mind and what decisiosn he has to make regarding VO, Grafx and Vulcan to keep the 'kachel' burning? I respect him for taking the step to try the stubborn and old VO community give some future for their apps! As said, Brian and I are very, very different and have very different opinions especially about communication and marketing, but then, it is his shop and his risk and his effort! > > >> I really don't care if VO is dead or not, but I do care if it is working >> or not! And it is working very well the last say 10 builds. >> >> If you use VO, just buy SP3! If your pride is preventing you for doing >> it, I'll be happy to buy SP3 for you as a gift to show my thanks for what >> you meant for me and our software in the past. Just drop a note! > > It has got little to do with pride, but I try to learn from mistakes I > made in the past. > SP2 was a disaster for me. Lost a lot of time with it and a promised quick > patch never appeared. This caused me to do a downgrade and it does not > make a good impression towards customers if they see the new update has > DLL's with earlier dates. > Now we need a SP3 to get SP2 working, so what garanties do I get I will > not need to wait another year for SP4 to get SP3 working? We have been > trapped more than once, and I try to prevent getting trapped again. > So even if I get it for free, I would not use it. At least not until all > signs are green in this forum. I am very curious what made SP2 that a disaster that you were unable to use it. I can understand that that is frustrating. Sure we have had some rollbacks too with some VOPS builds, but as said, when I had major showstoppers, I found Grafx quite responsive providing fixes the last few years. But then, we do not use the bounderies fo VO.. Perhaps that is our luck. Greetz, Marc > > Erik > > >
From: E®!k /!sser on 7 Sep 2009 03:14 Hi Johan, > > As Wolfgang said. I test new builds with my own apps and if it is working > then fine, new build is stable <FULLSTOP> > > However, one thing that also need to be taken into consideration, most > people on VOPS are moving on to Vulcan and C# and .NET, except for > maintaining existing VO apps. However, my philosophy always was, if it is > working why break it if the current version provide all you need? > > I for one, have only one application still running in VO, the rest are all > converted to Vulcan. > > When I made the decision I based it on the following: > > 3rd party libraries: > > bBrowser - The datagridview provided most of what I used bBrowser for. > bArrayServer - Again the datatable in .NET provides so much more without > the 64k max record limit. > G4VO - ZedGraph provided all that I needed. > RP 2.14 - All my reports are Hand coded datadriven reports. I just used > the PrintDocument class to redirect my own wrapper report class to output > to PrintDocument. > FabPaint - The .NET Image manipulation provided all I needed. > > VO specifics: > > CodeBlocks - Slower in .NET than in VO, but I can call any .NET > Class/Static from a codeblock now. Again, I reconsidered the use of > [macro compiled] codeblocks and I found that in 99% of cases I could > substitute with Expressions in my code or replace with internal .NET > features. > Picture property - Having troubles with "999.99" in WinForm, substitute > the SLE with a NumericUpDown control. MaskedTextBox and UserControl > provided all I needed to move away from DataWindow/DataDialogs. > cHTTP,cFTP *Mail - Again there are .NET classes for all of these. > > Business logic: > > Again, all of my business logic moved 100% over to Vulcan with very little > change in code. Following changes made however for obvious speed > improvements: > > Array - Replace with ArrayList, List<T>, SortedList<Key, Value> > TextBox classes - Substitute with .NET MessageBox. > > Other points that helped me: > > RRR - Reliable, Robust, Reusable. This point was in many of my Clipper > Technicons drilled in and I am glad that I took some of it up in my coding > style. > DataDriven - Again, based on the RRR all of my forms / classes are based > on some form of base class "MyClassBase" that all similar classes inherit > from. Change one class from VO Windows base class to WinForm and all > forms immediately have the functionality converted. > > In summary, yes I know many of you are complaining about VO and the > progress made. However I just wonder how much further, not that I imply > it is not yet feature rich, would Vulcan have been if it was not for the > effort gone into maintaining VO... > For the record, in general, I do not complain about the progress made on VO. In fact, from the beginning of VOPS I have stated Grafx should drop VO development and put all effort on Vulcan. But Brian kept saying 50% of he VOPS goes to VO development. On of my problems with Grafx is that there is a difference in what is been said and what is been done. Everybody with 'kindergarten' and three danceclasses can see most VOPS resources went to Vulcan. Only recently Brian stated something different from 50-50 OK, there has been made changes in VO. Lots of these changes to the VO compiler have been made to prevent having feateres in the Vulcan compiler that does not fit in the devteam idea of a .NET compiler. I for one never ever heard a VO developer asking for a mandatory Return statement at the end of a method. I do understand that, when designing a new compiler, you want to do thing differently, but in this (and other) case it could have been solved easely by the transporter. This is just one example, I can think of many more. This kind of changes to the VO compiler have nothing to do with maintance, it has to do with getting Vulcan more VO compatible. What I am compaining about is giving away an update for free that breaks things. Next is a quick and free fixs is promised and that you need to wait for a year to get it fixed and you also need to pay for that fix. I do agree with you on the rest of what you say. I am more or less in the same position I think. I only maintain what is absoluty needed in my VO apps that do not use my datadriven framework already. I have moved that framework (using Vulcan and reflector.....) to C#. Made changes to take advantage of Ado.NET and the .Net databinding and implemented nice things like the controls from Infragistic. regards, Erik > Wolfgang Riedmann wrote: >>> If you and Willie and Wolfgang and Meinhard and all the other people >>> Robert knows about are testing every build with real-life apps, how is >>> it possible that the public SP2 release has many obvious bugs discovered >>> very shortly after the release? > >> So it is logical that a public build shows errors that in the VOPS build >> don't show up. >> And we have other things to do than hunt bugs - we check if our apps >> work.
From: E®!k /!sser on 7 Sep 2009 03:42 Hi Marc, Fortunataly we all differ! For me it is an aspect of attitude. If you break things you fix it. And you do it right away without asking money for it. I am sorry to read the Vulcan compiler still is slow. I have made comments on that from the beginning. At that time it was because of 'not optimised yet' and 'still contains debug code' But I do agree having an app like Bake-it compile in Vulcan is an achievement! I most likely will not transport my apps (at least the ones that are not datadriven) to .NET. They lean heavy on third party products like vo2ado, bBrowser and Report Pro and I do not want to use those products in .NET as there are ( better than Report Pro, cheaper than vo2ado, fancier than bBrowser) alternatives. And most of my code in those apps is written several years ago. (read: could be written better...) So when I need to port those apps towards .NET i prefer to redesign them towards my datadriven framework written in C#. But I know this works for me as I have several smaller apps out there and not one or two big ones. Another aspect is that I do not use DBF files anymore for 'ages' regards, Erik "Marc Verkade [Marti IT]" <marcatM(a)rtidotnl> schreef in bericht news:4aa38294$0$765$58c7af7e(a)news.kabelfoon.nl... > Hai Erik, > > Plz read inbetween. > > "E�!k \/!sser" <nospam(a)nospam.com> schreef in bericht > news:7gf8o2F2per1mU1(a)mid.individual.net... >> Hi Marc, >> >>> Ehh, we do test real-life apps with every build of VO! >>> Sure we find issues, but most of them just annoying and no showstoppers. >>> After our apps run fine and after initial install of the VOPS build, >>> compiling and testing, most of the VOPS builds made it to our customers! >> >> OK. Now what I do not understand is this. >> If you and Willie and Wolfgang and Meinhard and all the other people >> Robert knows about are testing every build with real-life apps, how is it >> possible that the public SP2 release has many obvious bugs discovered >> very shortly after the release? >> Do not get me wrong, I do not doubt what you and the others wrote, I just >> wonder what went wrong and what has been done to prevent this going wrong >> again with SP3. > > As I said, we are using more or less plain VO. This results that we do not > enter the borders of VO where anomalies occur like the stuff from > Powerneet (Alwin). Furthermore we do not test all VO, only the stuff we > use. Have warnings as errors on and yes, now and thenm run into something > strange which can be fixed with a quick work-around from Robert or a fix > from VOPS. And sometimes, late minute changes did break stuff like the > debugger values not showing in the 'Watch' variables which was very > unfortunate and made it into the final build while it was not there in all > earlier builds. > > If the installed base is so small as VO, the software will never be fully > tested. In our office the changes and issues of the developers are tested > by the helpdesk. Even that is too much I guess because there is too little > money to pay a fulltime tester by Grafx. This means that we always will > have bugs, but then, as I said, the last few years Grafx is very > responsive in helping people with real issues at VOPS. > > There are lot's of issues, probably another men's year work, but are they > all showstoppers? No. Not all. Some of them will be and I know for sure > that they wil be fixed when you provide a sample and grab Roberts > attention with a clear mail regarding your issue. And if there is a > workaroun, I can imagine that the issue loses some of the urgenthess as do > bugs with workarounds in our software. > > So... No I cannot garantee that SP3 is bugfree, but I can say that it is > another step making VO better. > > The focus of Vulcan lies in the compatibility of VO. As said I was very > amazed that Bake-it was actually running in Vulcan. We do use C#, and now > we can integrate our C# wrapper apps into Bake-it. That alone makes > investigating Vulcan for us a worthy thing to do let alone the wide > variety of C# stuff we can integrate into our apps. > > We still have to do work in our Bake-it and wait for buiild 1.60 of > Vulcan because the enormous amount of DBServer's was causing very long > compile times. !.60 makes the amount of files drop from 8000 to 1200 files > and thus making compiling faster. But we are now at the point that we can > start transporter, be busy for an hour or 2 to fix some strange things in > our code (where lot's of that stuff comes from 3rd party) and have it > running in Vulcan. You know Bake-it is huge! > >> >> >>> Last week we compiled Bake-it in Vulcan. Offcoarse some things must be >>> done but it ran, inclusing most 3rd party stuff like bBrowser, Fab, >>> SEMenu etc.. Since Bake-it is a 350+ DBF's and 1000+ window app, I never >>> imagined that that was possible at all. We are not there yet, but >>> Bake-it running as a Vulcan app will be the starting point for a full >>> migration to .Net in the coming months. We now have the possibility to >>> slowly inlcude the numerous .Net controls and make Bake-it ready for the >>> next years to come and stay competitive. >> >> Great! Good for you! >> Just wondering as I have not seen any recent Vulcan releases, what .Net >> controls do you have in mind? Can you put a .Net control on a datawindow? >> And do you have a visual editor to do that? > > I have seen great stuff from DevExpress and Syncfusion. Fact is that our > competitors are being very busy renewing their software and I even might > say that our focus on our Cash-it cashers is causing that new potential > customers are even considering buying the competitors stuff. With some > focus on Bake-it and some neat and nice interface updates, I think we can > manage that threat. > > Our focus now lies at the transportation, but Hybrid VO / WinForms windows > are possible now. Furthermore you can change VO forms in VS2008 as > DBServers in the DBServer editor and other editors. Chris an Robert are > very busy wit Vulcan nowadays. After VO compatibility is finished, i am > sure they'll shift focus on 'real' .Net extensions. Since we will use > Bake-it for testing every new Vulcan build we will see what the future > will bring. The alternative, a total rewrite in ASP or C# does not sound > that happy to me now... > >> >>> I do not understand why you are bashing like this here. It must be >>> frustration and I do not think ventilating frustration this way is the >>> way to go. We all know that VO is not a major language and we all know >>> that it is difficult to make money with a development language, but >>> Grafx is trying to serve the VO community and keep the development tool >>> and language alive for the people like us which make their money with >>> it. And I am thankfull for that! People are different and Brian and I >>> are very different and I would have done things very different than he, >>> but then, I was not brave enough to become the owner of VO! This is the >>> way he goes and I respect him for taking this responsibility! >> >>> For me Grafx has shown the last few years that they listen to customers >>> and if there are major issues and showstoppers, they are helping and fix >>> them. This has been different in the past, but this is exactly where >>> VOPS shows it's value since it exists! 99$ is about 70 euro's! Only one >>> diner at a mediocre restaurant. Software is never perfect and yes, SP3 >>> is containing bugs for sure, but then, so does your software and mine! >> >> I do not know about you, but if I release an update and the customers >> suffers from bugs, I fix them right away. >> As you know I have been a VOPS member for three years so I do know what I >> am talking about if I mention lies, broken promises, half truths, >> manipulations etc. > > Yep, you are right, and they do within their powers. There have been quite > a few quick fixes after a VOPS release for various people with various > issues. Part of not being that responsive sometimes had to do with the > framework where VO was build in. Now even VO itself is created in VS2008 > and RObert has everything in place to release a new DLL or version within > minutes. I have seen that since he was fixing a VSS bug right next to me > while I was waiting for Bake-it to transport to Vulcan. > > I know that communication of Grafx is sometimes problematic. You know that > I have complained a lot too in the past! But than, it is software and I > too have to break promises when I hit a wall or have to deal with issues > that cannot be foreseen like the mess Robert found when turning all > warnings off when he first compiled the code he got from CA. Somethimes it > simply takes time, sometimes it takes more... I am in the stage that I > accepted that Grafx has a small team and it is difficult to make and keep > promises when people keep demanding that promises are made and that it > takes time to do stuff. Have you ever imagined what stuff is on Brians > mind and what decisiosn he has to make regarding VO, Grafx and Vulcan to > keep the 'kachel' burning? I respect him for taking the step to try the > stubborn and old VO community give some future for their apps! > > As said, Brian and I are very, very different and have very different > opinions especially about communication and marketing, but then, it is his > shop and his risk and his effort! > >> >> >>> I really don't care if VO is dead or not, but I do care if it is working >>> or not! And it is working very well the last say 10 builds. >>> >>> If you use VO, just buy SP3! If your pride is preventing you for doing >>> it, I'll be happy to buy SP3 for you as a gift to show my thanks for >>> what you meant for me and our software in the past. Just drop a note! >> >> It has got little to do with pride, but I try to learn from mistakes I >> made in the past. >> SP2 was a disaster for me. Lost a lot of time with it and a promised >> quick patch never appeared. This caused me to do a downgrade and it does >> not make a good impression towards customers if they see the new update >> has DLL's with earlier dates. >> Now we need a SP3 to get SP2 working, so what garanties do I get I will >> not need to wait another year for SP4 to get SP3 working? We have been >> trapped more than once, and I try to prevent getting trapped again. >> So even if I get it for free, I would not use it. At least not until all >> signs are green in this forum. > > I am very curious what made SP2 that a disaster that you were unable to > use it. I can understand that that is frustrating. Sure we have had some > rollbacks too with some VOPS builds, but as said, when I had major > showstoppers, I found Grafx quite responsive providing fixes the last few > years. But then, we do not use the bounderies fo VO.. Perhaps that is our > luck. > > Greetz, Marc > >> >> Erik >> >> >> >
From: Marc Verkade [Marti IT] on 7 Sep 2009 04:11 Hey, Plz read inbetween -- Grtz, Marc "E�!k \/!sser" <nospam(a)nospam.com> schreef in bericht news:7gjrqvF2p06b8U1(a)mid.individual.net... > Hi Marc, > > Fortunataly we all differ! For me it is an aspect of attitude. If you > break things you fix it. And you do it right away without asking money for > it. I agree with that. As said I do not know what issues were on SP2 that were showtoppers. I think VOPS did get fixes. Since about a 100 bugs were fixed and perhaps 5 new bugs were introduced, the overall score was positive for SP2 IMHO. I guess Grafx did not see the new introduced bugs as showstoppers, only as bugs, or did not get clean and lean samples showing the bugs. As said, VO will never be bug-free. > I am sorry to read the Vulcan compiler still is slow. I have made comments > on that from the beginning. At that time it was because of 'not optimised > yet' and 'still contains debug code' This time is because the huge amount of files (8000) and has nothing to do with the compiler itself, but with the way the transpoorter was generating files. This is enhanced now so the amount of files is smaller and thus the compiler is faster. > But I do agree having an app like Bake-it compile in Vulcan is an > achievement! > > I most likely will not transport my apps (at least the ones that are not > datadriven) to .NET. They lean heavy on third party products like vo2ado, > bBrowser and Report Pro and I do not want to use those products in .NET as > there are ( better than Report Pro, cheaper than vo2ado, fancier than > bBrowser) alternatives. > And most of my code in those apps is written several years ago. (read: > could be written better...) > So when I need to port those apps towards .NET i prefer to redesign them > towards my datadriven framework written in C#. > But I know this works for me as I have several smaller apps out there and > not one or two big ones. Another aspect is that I do not use DBF files > anymore for 'ages' I know it toook much effort but am happy for you that you managed to step into the future with your apps. Greets, Marc > > regards, > > Erik > > > > > > > > > > "Marc Verkade [Marti IT]" <marcatM(a)rtidotnl> schreef in bericht > news:4aa38294$0$765$58c7af7e(a)news.kabelfoon.nl... >> Hai Erik, >> >> Plz read inbetween. >> >> "E�!k \/!sser" <nospam(a)nospam.com> schreef in bericht >> news:7gf8o2F2per1mU1(a)mid.individual.net... >>> Hi Marc, >>> >>>> Ehh, we do test real-life apps with every build of VO! >>>> Sure we find issues, but most of them just annoying and no >>>> showstoppers. >>>> After our apps run fine and after initial install of the VOPS build, >>>> compiling and testing, most of the VOPS builds made it to our >>>> customers! >>> >>> OK. Now what I do not understand is this. >>> If you and Willie and Wolfgang and Meinhard and all the other people >>> Robert knows about are testing every build with real-life apps, how is >>> it possible that the public SP2 release has many obvious bugs discovered >>> very shortly after the release? >>> Do not get me wrong, I do not doubt what you and the others wrote, I >>> just wonder what went wrong and what has been done to prevent this going >>> wrong again with SP3. >> >> As I said, we are using more or less plain VO. This results that we do >> not enter the borders of VO where anomalies occur like the stuff from >> Powerneet (Alwin). Furthermore we do not test all VO, only the stuff we >> use. Have warnings as errors on and yes, now and thenm run into something >> strange which can be fixed with a quick work-around from Robert or a fix >> from VOPS. And sometimes, late minute changes did break stuff like the >> debugger values not showing in the 'Watch' variables which was very >> unfortunate and made it into the final build while it was not there in >> all earlier builds. >> >> If the installed base is so small as VO, the software will never be fully >> tested. In our office the changes and issues of the developers are tested >> by the helpdesk. Even that is too much I guess because there is too >> little money to pay a fulltime tester by Grafx. This means that we always >> will have bugs, but then, as I said, the last few years Grafx is very >> responsive in helping people with real issues at VOPS. >> >> There are lot's of issues, probably another men's year work, but are they >> all showstoppers? No. Not all. Some of them will be and I know for sure >> that they wil be fixed when you provide a sample and grab Roberts >> attention with a clear mail regarding your issue. And if there is a >> workaroun, I can imagine that the issue loses some of the urgenthess as >> do bugs with workarounds in our software. >> >> So... No I cannot garantee that SP3 is bugfree, but I can say that it is >> another step making VO better. >> >> The focus of Vulcan lies in the compatibility of VO. As said I was very >> amazed that Bake-it was actually running in Vulcan. We do use C#, and now >> we can integrate our C# wrapper apps into Bake-it. That alone makes >> investigating Vulcan for us a worthy thing to do let alone the wide >> variety of C# stuff we can integrate into our apps. >> >> We still have to do work in our Bake-it and wait for buiild 1.60 of >> Vulcan because the enormous amount of DBServer's was causing very long >> compile times. !.60 makes the amount of files drop from 8000 to 1200 >> files and thus making compiling faster. But we are now at the point that >> we can start transporter, be busy for an hour or 2 to fix some strange >> things in our code (where lot's of that stuff comes from 3rd party) and >> have it running in Vulcan. You know Bake-it is huge! >> >>> >>> >>>> Last week we compiled Bake-it in Vulcan. Offcoarse some things must be >>>> done but it ran, inclusing most 3rd party stuff like bBrowser, Fab, >>>> SEMenu etc.. Since Bake-it is a 350+ DBF's and 1000+ window app, I >>>> never imagined that that was possible at all. We are not there yet, but >>>> Bake-it running as a Vulcan app will be the starting point for a full >>>> migration to .Net in the coming months. We now have the possibility to >>>> slowly inlcude the numerous .Net controls and make Bake-it ready for >>>> the next years to come and stay competitive. >>> >>> Great! Good for you! >>> Just wondering as I have not seen any recent Vulcan releases, what .Net >>> controls do you have in mind? Can you put a .Net control on a >>> datawindow? And do you have a visual editor to do that? >> >> I have seen great stuff from DevExpress and Syncfusion. Fact is that our >> competitors are being very busy renewing their software and I even might >> say that our focus on our Cash-it cashers is causing that new potential >> customers are even considering buying the competitors stuff. With some >> focus on Bake-it and some neat and nice interface updates, I think we can >> manage that threat. >> >> Our focus now lies at the transportation, but Hybrid VO / WinForms >> windows are possible now. Furthermore you can change VO forms in VS2008 >> as DBServers in the DBServer editor and other editors. Chris an Robert >> are very busy wit Vulcan nowadays. After VO compatibility is finished, i >> am sure they'll shift focus on 'real' .Net extensions. Since we will use >> Bake-it for testing every new Vulcan build we will see what the future >> will bring. The alternative, a total rewrite in ASP or C# does not sound >> that happy to me now... >> >>> >>>> I do not understand why you are bashing like this here. It must be >>>> frustration and I do not think ventilating frustration this way is the >>>> way to go. We all know that VO is not a major language and we all know >>>> that it is difficult to make money with a development language, but >>>> Grafx is trying to serve the VO community and keep the development tool >>>> and language alive for the people like us which make their money with >>>> it. And I am thankfull for that! People are different and Brian and I >>>> are very different and I would have done things very different than he, >>>> but then, I was not brave enough to become the owner of VO! This is the >>>> way he goes and I respect him for taking this responsibility! >>> >>>> For me Grafx has shown the last few years that they listen to customers >>>> and if there are major issues and showstoppers, they are helping and >>>> fix them. This has been different in the past, but this is exactly >>>> where VOPS shows it's value since it exists! 99$ is about 70 euro's! >>>> Only one diner at a mediocre restaurant. Software is never perfect and >>>> yes, SP3 is containing bugs for sure, but then, so does your software >>>> and mine! >>> >>> I do not know about you, but if I release an update and the customers >>> suffers from bugs, I fix them right away. >>> As you know I have been a VOPS member for three years so I do know what >>> I am talking about if I mention lies, broken promises, half truths, >>> manipulations etc. >> >> Yep, you are right, and they do within their powers. There have been >> quite a few quick fixes after a VOPS release for various people with >> various issues. Part of not being that responsive sometimes had to do >> with the framework where VO was build in. Now even VO itself is created >> in VS2008 and RObert has everything in place to release a new DLL or >> version within minutes. I have seen that since he was fixing a VSS bug >> right next to me while I was waiting for Bake-it to transport to Vulcan. >> >> I know that communication of Grafx is sometimes problematic. You know >> that I have complained a lot too in the past! But than, it is software >> and I too have to break promises when I hit a wall or have to deal with >> issues that cannot be foreseen like the mess Robert found when turning >> all warnings off when he first compiled the code he got from CA. >> Somethimes it simply takes time, sometimes it takes more... I am in the >> stage that I accepted that Grafx has a small team and it is difficult to >> make and keep promises when people keep demanding that promises are made >> and that it takes time to do stuff. Have you ever imagined what stuff is >> on Brians mind and what decisiosn he has to make regarding VO, Grafx and >> Vulcan to keep the 'kachel' burning? I respect him for taking the step to >> try the stubborn and old VO community give some future for their apps! >> >> As said, Brian and I are very, very different and have very different >> opinions especially about communication and marketing, but then, it is >> his shop and his risk and his effort! >> >>> >>> >>>> I really don't care if VO is dead or not, but I do care if it is >>>> working or not! And it is working very well the last say 10 builds. >>>> >>>> If you use VO, just buy SP3! If your pride is preventing you for doing >>>> it, I'll be happy to buy SP3 for you as a gift to show my thanks for >>>> what you meant for me and our software in the past. Just drop a note! >>> >>> It has got little to do with pride, but I try to learn from mistakes I >>> made in the past. >>> SP2 was a disaster for me. Lost a lot of time with it and a promised >>> quick patch never appeared. This caused me to do a downgrade and it does >>> not make a good impression towards customers if they see the new update >>> has DLL's with earlier dates. >>> Now we need a SP3 to get SP2 working, so what garanties do I get I will >>> not need to wait another year for SP4 to get SP3 working? We have been >>> trapped more than once, and I try to prevent getting trapped again. >>> So even if I get it for free, I would not use it. At least not until all >>> signs are green in this forum. >> >> I am very curious what made SP2 that a disaster that you were unable to >> use it. I can understand that that is frustrating. Sure we have had some >> rollbacks too with some VOPS builds, but as said, when I had major >> showstoppers, I found Grafx quite responsive providing fixes the last few >> years. But then, we do not use the bounderies fo VO.. Perhaps that is our >> luck. >> >> Greetz, Marc >> >>> >>> Erik >>> >>> >>> >> >
From: Gabriel on 10 Sep 2009 17:34
Hi All, About 3 years ago I left Marti IT (of which Marc Verkade is the owner) after ca. 3 years of working for them. For me Marti meant my first object oriented programming experience, and for me that first experience was in VO. Marc always directed me to this newsgroup where you could (and I presume still can) always count on a quick and correct response. So during my time Ive browsed this newsgroup very frequently and I must say Ive always been very surprised about the length of some discussions and the messages posted in those discussions. Especially since I left Marti and decided to work as a independent entrepreneur building websites and software (www.amteam.nl, a little sneaky marketing ;)). Because, where do all you guys (and girl, Ginny) find the time to get in discussions like this one, or better put: what am I doing wrong that I normally dont have the time to participate in a discussion like this, certainly not with the average length of the posts that are put here. But, that said, please continue doing so. Yesterday Marc was at our office and I told him about the way I still monitor this newsgroup. And this is how, picture this: I take a bottle of coke, some popcorn and then I open this newsgroup searching for topics with more than 30 responses. That way I find threads like this one, these threads are much better than any soap broadcoasted on tv, or any reality program for that matter. Trust me, I enjoy this a lot. Because since 3 years, when I left Marti and thereby also VO, not much has changed. People complain here about how its not maintained actively enough, Ginny stands up for Brian and tries to give it a positive twist, its the same story over and over again. What I was thinking is that, with such a lively community, why not bring VO open source? I mean the progress on VO might be slow (or death?), the community seems to be very much alive and willing to make it a better product. So unite, bring some money together, give Brian the money, ask for the code and continue yourselves. Just cut the time you use for this newsgroup in half and use one half of it to contribute to the VO open source project. I think you guys together could build a GREAT niche language with which you can all work till your retirement. I mean, its only my two cents, but I think it could work :) And if you wonder why I posted this, and where I found the time, I felt obliged too. After the amount of entertainment you all gave me, the least I could to was thank you all for it! Now I return back to my spectator seat, so you can always be sure, at least 1 person is watching you :) Cheers & thanks, Gabriël On 7 sep, 10:11, "Marc Verkade [Marti IT]" <marcatM(a)rtidotnl> wrote: > Hey, > Plz read inbetween > > -- > Grtz, Marc > > "E®!k \/!sser" <nos...(a)nospam.com> schreef in berichtnews:7gjrqvF2p06b8U1(a)mid.individual.net... > > > Hi Marc, > > > Fortunataly we all differ! For me it is an aspect of attitude. If you > > break things you fix it. And you do it right away without asking money for > > it. > > I agree with that. As said I do not know what issues were on SP2 that were > showtoppers. I think VOPS did get fixes. Since about a 100 bugs were fixed > and perhaps 5 new bugs were introduced, the overall score was positive for > SP2 IMHO. I guess Grafx did not see the new introduced bugs as showstoppers, > only as bugs, or did not get clean and lean samples showing the bugs. As > said, VO will never be bug-free. > > > I am sorry to read the Vulcan compiler still is slow. I have made comments > > on that from the beginning. At that time it was because of 'not optimised > > yet' and 'still contains debug code' > > This time is because the huge amount of files (8000) and has nothing to do > with the compiler itself, but with the way the transpoorter was generating > files. This is enhanced now so the amount of files is smaller and thus the > compiler is faster. > > > But I do agree having an app like Bake-it compile in Vulcan is an > > achievement! > > > I most likely will not transport my apps (at least the ones that are not > > datadriven) to .NET. They lean heavy on third party products like vo2ado, > > bBrowser and Report Pro and I do not want to use those products in .NET as > > there are ( better than Report Pro, cheaper than vo2ado, fancier than > > bBrowser) alternatives. > > And most of my code in those apps is written several years ago. (read: > > could be written better...) > > So when I need to port those apps towards .NET i prefer to redesign them > > towards my datadriven framework written in C#. > > But I know this works for me as I have several smaller apps out there and > > not one or two big ones. Another aspect is that I do not use DBF files > > anymore for 'ages' > > I know it toook much effort but am happy for you that you managed to step > into the future with your apps. > Greets, Marc > > > > > regards, > > > Erik > > > "Marc Verkade [Marti IT]" <marcatM(a)rtidotnl> schreef in bericht > >news:4aa38294$0$765$58c7af7e(a)news.kabelfoon.nl... > >> Hai Erik, > > >> Plz read inbetween. > > >> "E®!k \/!sser" <nos...(a)nospam.com> schreef in bericht > >>news:7gf8o2F2per1mU1(a)mid.individual.net... > >>> Hi Marc, > > >>>> Ehh, we do test real-life apps with every build of VO! > >>>> Sure we find issues, but most of them just annoying and no > >>>> showstoppers. > >>>> After our apps run fine and after initial install of the VOPS build, > >>>> compiling and testing, most of the VOPS builds made it to our > >>>> customers! > > >>> OK. Now what I do not understand is this. > >>> If you and Willie and Wolfgang and Meinhard and all the other people > >>> Robert knows about are testing every build with real-life apps, how is > >>> it possible that the public SP2 release has many obvious bugs discovered > >>> very shortly after the release? > >>> Do not get me wrong, I do not doubt what you and the others wrote, I > >>> just wonder what went wrong and what has been done to prevent this going > >>> wrong again with SP3. > > >> As I said, we are using more or less plain VO. This results that we do > >> not enter the borders of VO where anomalies occur like the stuff from > >> Powerneet (Alwin). Furthermore we do not test all VO, only the stuff we > >> use. Have warnings as errors on and yes, now and thenm run into something > >> strange which can be fixed with a quick work-around from Robert or a fix > >> from VOPS. And sometimes, late minute changes did break stuff like the > >> debugger values not showing in the 'Watch' variables which was very > >> unfortunate and made it into the final build while it was not there in > >> all earlier builds. > > >> If the installed base is so small as VO, the software will never be fully > >> tested. In our office the changes and issues of the developers are tested > >> by the helpdesk. Even that is too much I guess because there is too > >> little money to pay a fulltime tester by Grafx. This means that we always > >> will have bugs, but then, as I said, the last few years Grafx is very > >> responsive in helping people with real issues at VOPS. > > >> There are lot's of issues, probably another men's year work, but are they > >> all showstoppers? No. Not all. Some of them will be and I know for sure > >> that they wil be fixed when you provide a sample and grab Roberts > >> attention with a clear mail regarding your issue. And if there is a > >> workaroun, I can imagine that the issue loses some of the urgenthess as > >> do bugs with workarounds in our software. > > >> So... No I cannot garantee that SP3 is bugfree, but I can say that it is > >> another step making VO better. > > >> The focus of Vulcan lies in the compatibility of VO. As said I was very > >> amazed that Bake-it was actually running in Vulcan. We do use C#, and now > >> we can integrate our C# wrapper apps into Bake-it. That alone makes > >> investigating Vulcan for us a worthy thing to do let alone the wide > >> variety of C# stuff we can integrate into our apps. > > >> We still have to do work in our Bake-it and wait for buiild 1.60 of > >> Vulcan because the enormous amount of DBServer's was causing very long > >> compile times. !.60 makes the amount of files drop from 8000 to 1200 > >> files and thus making compiling faster. But we are now at the point that > >> we can start transporter, be busy for an hour or 2 to fix some strange > >> things in our code (where lot's of that stuff comes from 3rd party) and > >> have it running in Vulcan. You know Bake-it is huge! > > >>>> Last week we compiled Bake-it in Vulcan. Offcoarse some things must be > >>>> done but it ran, inclusing most 3rd party stuff like bBrowser, Fab, > >>>> SEMenu etc.. Since Bake-it is a 350+ DBF's and 1000+ window app, I > >>>> never imagined that that was possible at all. We are not there yet, but > >>>> Bake-it running as a Vulcan app will be the starting point for a full > >>>> migration to .Net in the coming months. We now have the possibility to > >>>> slowly inlcude the numerous .Net controls and make Bake-it ready for > >>>> the next years to come and stay competitive. > > >>> Great! Good for you! > >>> Just wondering as I have not seen any recent Vulcan releases, what .Net > >>> controls do you have in mind? Can you put a .Net control on a > >>> datawindow? And do you have a visual editor to do that? > > >> I have seen great stuff from DevExpress and Syncfusion. Fact is that our > >> competitors are being very busy renewing their software and I even might > >> say that our focus on our Cash-it cashers is causing that new potential > >> customers are even considering buying the competitors stuff. With some > >> focus on Bake-it and some neat and nice interface updates, I think we can > >> manage that threat. > > >> Our focus now lies at the transportation, but Hybrid VO / WinForms > >> windows are possible now. Furthermore you can change VO forms in VS2008 > >> as DBServers in the DBServer editor and other editors. Chris an Robert > >> are very busy wit Vulcan nowadays. After VO compatibility is finished, i > >> am sure they'll shift focus on 'real' .Net extensions. Since we will use > >> Bake-it for testing every new Vulcan build we will see what the future > >> will bring. The alternative, a total rewrite in ASP or C# does not sound > >> that happy to me now... > > >>>> I do not understand why you are bashing like this here. It must be > >>>> frustration and I do not think ventilating frustration this way is the > >>>> way to go. We all know that VO is not a major language and we all know > >>>> that it is difficult to make money with a development language, but > >>>> Grafx is trying to serve the VO community and keep the development tool > >>>> and language alive for the people like us which make their money with > >>>> it. And I am thankfull for that! People are different and Brian and I > >>>> are very different and I would have done things very different than he, > >>>> but then, I was not brave enough to become the owner of VO! This is the > >>>> way he goes and I respect him for taking this responsibility! > > >>>> For me Grafx has shown the last few years that they listen to customers > >>>> and if there are major issues and showstoppers, they are helping and > >>>> fix them. This has been different in the past, but this is exactly > >>>> where VOPS shows it's value since it exists! 99$ is about 70 euro's! > >>>> Only one diner at a mediocre restaurant. Software is never perfect and > >>>> yes, SP3 is containing bugs for sure, but then, so does your software > >>>> and mine! > > >>> I do not know about you, but if I release an update and the customers > >>> suffers from bugs, I fix them right away. > >>> As you know I have been a VOPS member for three years so I do know what > >>> I am talking about if I mention lies, broken promises, half truths, > >>> manipulations etc. > > >> Yep, you are right, and they do within their powers. There have been > >> quite a few quick fixes after a VOPS release for various people with > >> various issues. Part of not being that responsive sometimes had to do > >> with the framework where VO was build in. Now even VO itself is created > >> in VS2008 and RObert has everything in place to release a new DLL or > >> version within minutes. I have seen that since he was fixing a VSS bug > >> right next to me while I was waiting for Bake-it to transport to Vulcan. > > >> I know that communication of Grafx is sometimes problematic. You know > >> that I have complained a lot too in the past! But than, it is software > >> and I too have to break promises when I hit a wall or have to deal with > >> issues that cannot be foreseen like the mess Robert found when turning > >> all warnings off when he first compiled the code he got from CA. > >> Somethimes it simply takes time, sometimes it takes more... I am in the > >> stage > > ... > > meer lezen » |