command line vs gui
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From: Tobias Brox on 14 Dec 2005 01:29 [Lee Sau Dan] > I bother to learn IPA so that I can check pronunciations with a > dictionary; they don't. Then you're cheating; children learn pronunciations without dictionaries. :-) -- This signature has been virus scanned, and is probably safe to read Tobias Brox, 69?42'N, 18?57'E
From: blmblm on 14 Dec 2005 02:00 In article <87u0dckypt.fsf(a)informatik.uni-freiburg.de>, Lee Sau Dan <danlee(a)informatik.uni-freiburg.de> wrote: >>>>>> "blmblm" == blmblm <blmblm(a)myrealbox.com> writes: > > >> But still, many HKers who learned English in the same > >> education system and environment as I do, do not learn it that > >> well. Many of them has a very Chinese accent. > > blmblm> So what's the difference between them and you? You reject > blmblm> the most ego-boosting explanation (unusual ability on your > blmblm> part) :-), so it must be something else? > >I bother to [ snip list of activities ] This may be a large part of it -- you're willing to put in the extra effort to continue improving, and not everyone is. > blmblm> This subtopic started when I disagreed with the claim that > blmblm> learning a new language was easy for adults. I *think* > blmblm> what you've been saying is that it doesn't take any > blmblm> special abilities, but it does take an investment of time > blmblm> and energy that a lot of people seem unable or unwilling > blmblm> to make? > >Basically. Of course, there are physical differences. E.g. children >may more relatively sensitive ears than adults. And children may have >better memory than adults, too. But I think these differences are not >big enough to be *significant*. They get exaggerated (and repeated) >only because many adults want to use them as excuses not to learn a >new language. Everything I've heard agrees with what the other participant in this discussion (Tobias Brox) is saying: The way in which children, especially very young children, learn language is fundamentally different from the way in which adults learn language. We could both be misremembering, or misunderstanding, what we've read, I guess, but .... I suspect you also have noticed that people who learn a language as an adult sometimes make mistakes no native speaker would make. In English, what I've noticed is that people whose first language doesn't have articles ("a", "an", "the") really have no idea how to use them -- they've learned some rules and struggle to apply the rules, but it's all a conscious process that native speakers don't have to go through. Native speakers "just know" when to use these little words. I had this feeling when I was studying Spanish, about the subjunctive -- native speakers "just knew" when to use it, whereas I had to struggle with some poorly-defined rules and guidelines. I admit I didn't put a lot of work into trying to become fluent, and it's possible I hadn't figured out that I was going to need to develop some understanding that went beyond learning rules, but still. I think something happens in the brain of a small child learning a language in -- whatever way it is they learn, by osmosis maybe -- that's difficult or impossible for adults to duplicate. That doesn't mean adults can't learn new languages, just that it has to be done differently, and it might be work, whereas for small children it's sort of effortless and automatic. But sometimes the language small children learn includes the mistakes of those they learn from, where adults might find that easier to avoid .... <shrug> Or maybe it's just that most people are lazy and not very smart. Sort of a :-), since I probably fall into the "lazy" category at least! [ snip ] -- | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
From: blmblm on 14 Dec 2005 02:03 In article <dno7k8$1feu$3(a)news.uit.no>, Tobias Brox <tobias(a)stud.cs.uit.no> wrote: >[blmblm(a)myrealbox.com] >>>I lost that part of the manual. Typical example that a GUI can be >>>better than manual pages, maybe? :-) > >> Depends on whether its structure of menu options and checkboxes is >> more complete, no? > >Right, besides a feature hidden far down in some menu hierarchy is by >no means better than a CLI feature that is hidden in the "wrong" part >of the manual. Agreed! [ snip ] >I had >actually expected somebody to jump up and tell that it would be better >to use "find ... -printf ..." instead of "find ... -ls" Good point -- it would! except that -ls does give all the information one probably wants, and is fairly easy to remember, while -printf .... It does allow one to get just the information of interest (for example, I often want full path name and time of last modification, but nothing else) in a format that will be easy for other commands to process. But I almost always have to check the man page before using it. -- | B. L. Massingill | ObDisclaimer: I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.
From: Lee Sau Dan on 15 Dec 2005 09:15 >>>>> "Tobias" == Tobias Brox <tobias(a)stud.cs.uit.no> writes: Tobias> [Lee Sau Dan] >> I bother to learn IPA so that I can check pronunciations with a >> dictionary; they don't. Tobias> Then you're cheating; children learn pronunciations Tobias> without dictionaries. :-) I learnt English by going to school and using dictionaries. -- Lee Sau Dan §õ¦u´° ~{@nJX6X~} E-mail: danlee(a)informatik.uni-freiburg.de Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee
From: Lee Sau Dan on 15 Dec 2005 09:22
>>>>> "blmblm" == blmblm <blmblm(a)myrealbox.com> writes: blmblm> I suspect you also have noticed that people who learn a blmblm> language as an adult sometimes make mistakes no native blmblm> speaker would make. Such as? Or similar mistakes, when made by native children, are simply forgotten or ignored? blmblm> In English, what I've noticed is that people whose first blmblm> language doesn't have articles ("a", "an", "the") really blmblm> have no idea how to use them Then, I should have no idea of how to use them, either. My mother tongue has no articles. My mother tongue even doesn't distinguish singular from plural. And it doesn't modify verbs depending on whether an action takes place at present, or took place in the past. blmblm> -- they've learned some rules and struggle to apply the blmblm> rules, but it's all a conscious process that native blmblm> speakers don't have to go through. Don't very young kids speaking English natively also leave out articles in their "baby-talk"? blmblm> Native speakers "just know" when to use these little blmblm> words. They have to learn it. blmblm> I had this feeling when I was studying Spanish, about the blmblm> subjunctive -- native speakers "just knew" when to use it, English has also a subjunctive. You just aren't aware of it. If only the English speakers would call the subjective "subjective", rather than something like "unreal past tense". Would they? Could they? -- Lee Sau Dan §õ¦u´° ~{@nJX6X~} E-mail: danlee(a)informatik.uni-freiburg.de Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee |