Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: BuddyThunder on 19 Jun 2008 01:41 rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 18, 5:41�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:07:49 -0700 (PDT), asilentskeptic >> <asilentskep...(a)gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jun 18, 12:51 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 16, 11:29 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jun 16, 1:19 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 16, 12:50 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 15, 6:32?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:46:58 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 6:33?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:48:13 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 6:52?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 06:45:55 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 12, 9:45?pm, none <""doug\"@(none)"> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you should explain your ideas to the twelve apostles after the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resurrection takes place, Darrell. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you do not know how many there are (if any) or their names >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you just hide behind the statement above to cover your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignorance. ?Just like in your failed attempts to argue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> physics, you do not even know enough to argue your religious >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs and have to retreat to claiming ignorance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not claim ignorance. ?I just told Darrell to look them up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You admit failure, no matter how you describe it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why, because Darrell is not going to look them up? ?I do not care what >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Darrell does. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You told him to look it up because you didn't have the evidence. You ran >>>>>>>>>>>>>> away from the question.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> Nope. ?I told atheists a long time ago I was not going to be their >>>>>>>>>>>>> researcher. >>>>>>>>>>>> You refuse to do the research to back up your own claims. You are no >>>>>>>>>>>> one's researcher. You worship ignorance.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> Well, I did a little �better than the atheists on Hezekiah's tunnel >>>>>>>>>>> and the ramp over the city wall at Lachish. >>>>>>>>>> No. You only think you did. For some reason. Could you tell us why?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Yes, I can do that. �There is an actual earthen ramp built by the >>>>>>>>> Assyrian army that still exists today. �There is an actual conduit for >>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the Pool of Siloam, just as the Bible >>>>>>>>> says there is. �The problem that atheists have is that J.K. Rowling is >>>>>>>>> from northern England. �When she wrote about Harry Potter leaving from >>>>>>>>> the train station in London, probably the only thing she knew about >>>>>>>>> the train station was its name. � So comparing the Biblical account, >>>>>>>>> which can be easily verified by going to Israel and looking at the >>>>>>>>> ramp and the conduit for water, to what J.K. Rowling wrote in a book >>>>>>>>> which she said was fiction means nothing to me, however sacred it may >>>>>>>>> be to you atheists. >>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>> So, substituting ... >>>>>>>> Yes, I can do that. �There is an actual major city founded by the >>>>>>>> Romans that still exists today. �There is an actual railway station, >>>>>>>> just as Harry Potter says there is. >>>>>>>> We know that Harry Potter is fiction. You're claiming Biblical authority >>>>>>>> SOLELY on the existence of some mentioned ancient sites. We're pointing >>>>>>>> out that by the same logic, you would be forced to admit Harry Potter's >>>>>>>> authority. If can't t accept its authority, then your argument need >>>>>>>> reexamination. Maybe the Bible needs more support for its extraordinary >>>>>>>> claims.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> There is also a woman who calls herself J.K. Rowling who says she >>>>>>> wrote the Harry Potter books as fiction, regardless of how many >>>>>>> atheists believe them. >>>>>>> I am not claiming Biblical authority SOLEY on the existence of some >>>>>>> mentioned ancient sites. �An atheist claimed that there was nothing in >>>>>>> the Bible that could be verified by anything that exists today, so I >>>>>>> mentioned Hezekiah's tunnel. �It was not an argument. >>>>>> We'll have to take your word about the claim, but okay. You were >>>>>> correct, and I don't think that point is contended. Some things in the >>>>>> Bible are verifiable. >>>>>>> It was information about something mentioned in the Bible that can be seen >>>>>>> today. �And as we can see, atheists still claim that Hezekiah's tunnel >>>>>>> is exactly like Harry Potter leaving for wizard's school, including >>>>>>> you. �No, Hezekiah's tunnel is not exactly like Harry Potter leaving >>>>>>> for wizard's school. �You atheists are not going to be able to >>>>>>> convince me that Hezekiah's tunnel is exactly like Harry Potter >>>>>>> leaving for wizard's school. �As long as you continue to try to >>>>>>> convince me that Hezekiah's tunnel is exactly like Harry Potter >>>>>>> leaving for wizard's school, I will continue to say that you do not >>>>>>> believe Hezekiah's tunnel exists because Harry Potter does not exist >>>>>>> and wizard's school does not exist. >>>>>> Then you would be persisting in your error. If you were simply trying to >>>>>> say that at least SOME of the Bible is true, then okay, you've made your >>>>>> point. We thought you were arguing for the accuracy of the WHOLE on the >>>>>> basis of these minor points. Okay, a whole lot of arguing over nothing >>>>>> now that we know what your claim really is. (Is that it?) >>>>>> If you are saying that Hezekiah's >>>>>>> tunnel is exactly like Harry Potter leaving for wizard's school, then >>>>>>> you are saying that Hezekiah's tunnel does not exist. >>>>>> That is of course a deliberate misrepresentation, but I think I can >>>>>> understand why you're making it now.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> It is not a deliberate misrepresentation. �The Biblical account of the >>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea is much more believable than any other >>>>> account of the same events, including the account of Sennacherib, the >>>>> Assyrian king, which is the account that atheists promote because it >>>>> is different from the Biblical one. >>>> You would need to say WHY you find it more believable than the >>>> mainstream account if you want any support for your views. I don't have >>>> any familiarity with the events in question, so I don't have an opinion >>>> either way (or some third, unexplored option), depite being an evil atheist. >>>>> But none of these ancient >>>>> accounts have anything to do with Harry Potter, a character in a >>>>> modern work of fiction. >>>> I agree, they don't have anything to do with it, except that drawing >>>> support for the Bible's claims on this basis is like trying to support >>>> Harry Potter by mentioning London. If you believe the Bible is Truth >>>> because of these sites, then you should believe that Harry Potter is >>>> Truth for the same reason. >>>> � �Nevertheless, all I had to do to get a >>>>> response about Harry Potter was mention Hezekiah's tunnel, a conduit >>>>> for water constructed during the Assyrian invasion or the earthen ramp >>>>> that the Assyrian army built to get over the city wall at Lachish. >>>>> According to atheists, these evidences of the Assyrian invasion were >>>>> exactly like Harry Potter leaving for wizard's school. >>>> We believe you're trying to show Biblical authority by mentioning these >>>> sites. While you persist in this logical fallacy, we're going to stick >>>> with the Harry Potter comparrison. :-) >>>> Anyone hysterical yet? >>> I gave up after using two further examples and some further comments. >>> Spiderman and the Iliad. >>> I don't like to deal with the deliberately obtuse. >> Yes, Mr. Winn has gone beyond merely being obtuse to being intentionally >> dishonest. Even the LDS and other Christians should chastise him for his >> lies. I don't expect him to ever repent of his foolish dishonesty.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, I mentioned two things, a ramp and a conduit for water > constructed during the Assyrian invasion of Judea. Which of those do > you claim I lied about? You are in error about their implications.
From: BuddyThunder on 19 Jun 2008 01:43 asilentskeptic wrote: > On Jun 18, 12:51 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 16, 11:29 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 16, 1:19 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jun 16, 12:50 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 15, 6:32�am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:46:58 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 6:33?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:48:13 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 6:52?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 06:45:55 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 12, 9:45?pm, none <""doug\"@(none)"> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you should explain your ideas to the twelve apostles after the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resurrection takes place, Darrell. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you do not know how many there are (if any) or their names >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you just hide behind the statement above to cover your >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignorance. ?Just like in your failed attempts to argue >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> physics, you do not even know enough to argue your religious >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs and have to retreat to claiming ignorance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not claim ignorance. ?I just told Darrell to look them up >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You admit failure, no matter how you describe it. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Why, because Darrell is not going to look them up? ?I do not care what >>>>>>>>>>>>> Darrell does. >>>>>>>>>>>> You told him to look it up because you didn't have the evidence. You ran >>>>>>>>>>>> away from the question.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> Nope. �I told atheists a long time ago I was not going to be their >>>>>>>>>>> researcher. >>>>>>>>>> You refuse to do the research to back up your own claims. You are no >>>>>>>>>> one's researcher. You worship ignorance.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Well, I did a little better than the atheists on Hezekiah's tunnel >>>>>>>>> and the ramp over the city wall at Lachish. >>>>>>>> No. You only think you did. For some reason. Could you tell us why?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Yes, I can do that. There is an actual earthen ramp built by the >>>>>>> Assyrian army that still exists today. There is an actual conduit for >>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the Pool of Siloam, just as the Bible >>>>>>> says there is. The problem that atheists have is that J.K. Rowling is >>>>>>> from northern England. When she wrote about Harry Potter leaving from >>>>>>> the train station in London, probably the only thing she knew about >>>>>>> the train station was its name. So comparing the Biblical account, >>>>>>> which can be easily verified by going to Israel and looking at the >>>>>>> ramp and the conduit for water, to what J.K. Rowling wrote in a book >>>>>>> which she said was fiction means nothing to me, however sacred it may >>>>>>> be to you atheists. >>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>> So, substituting ... >>>>>> Yes, I can do that. There is an actual major city founded by the >>>>>> Romans that still exists today. There is an actual railway station, >>>>>> just as Harry Potter says there is. >>>>>> We know that Harry Potter is fiction. You're claiming Biblical authority >>>>>> SOLELY on the existence of some mentioned ancient sites. We're pointing >>>>>> out that by the same logic, you would be forced to admit Harry Potter's >>>>>> authority. If can't t accept its authority, then your argument need >>>>>> reexamination. Maybe the Bible needs more support for its extraordinary >>>>>> claims.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> There is also a woman who calls herself J.K. Rowling who says she >>>>> wrote the Harry Potter books as fiction, regardless of how many >>>>> atheists believe them. >>>>> I am not claiming Biblical authority SOLEY on the existence of some >>>>> mentioned ancient sites. An atheist claimed that there was nothing in >>>>> the Bible that could be verified by anything that exists today, so I >>>>> mentioned Hezekiah's tunnel. It was not an argument. >>>> We'll have to take your word about the claim, but okay. You were >>>> correct, and I don't think that point is contended. Some things in the >>>> Bible are verifiable. >>>>> It was information about something mentioned in the Bible that can be seen >>>>> today. And as we can see, atheists still claim that Hezekiah's tunnel >>>>> is exactly like Harry Potter leaving for wizard's school, including >>>>> you. No, Hezekiah's tunnel is not exactly like Harry Potter leaving >>>>> for wizard's school. You atheists are not going to be able to >>>>> convince me that Hezekiah's tunnel is exactly like Harry Potter >>>>> leaving for wizard's school. As long as you continue to try to >>>>> convince me that Hezekiah's tunnel is exactly like Harry Potter >>>>> leaving for wizard's school, I will continue to say that you do not >>>>> believe Hezekiah's tunnel exists because Harry Potter does not exist >>>>> and wizard's school does not exist. >>>> Then you would be persisting in your error. If you were simply trying to >>>> say that at least SOME of the Bible is true, then okay, you've made your >>>> point. We thought you were arguing for the accuracy of the WHOLE on the >>>> basis of these minor points. Okay, a whole lot of arguing over nothing >>>> now that we know what your claim really is. (Is that it?) >>>> If you are saying that Hezekiah's >>>>> tunnel is exactly like Harry Potter leaving for wizard's school, then >>>>> you are saying that Hezekiah's tunnel does not exist. >>>> That is of course a deliberate misrepresentation, but I think I can >>>> understand why you're making it now.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> It is not a deliberate misrepresentation. The Biblical account of the >>> Assyrian invasion of Judea is much more believable than any other >>> account of the same events, including the account of Sennacherib, the >>> Assyrian king, which is the account that atheists promote because it >>> is different from the Biblical one. >> You would need to say WHY you find it more believable than the >> mainstream account if you want any support for your views. I don't have >> any familiarity with the events in question, so I don't have an opinion >> either way (or some third, unexplored option), depite being an evil atheist. >> >>> But none of these ancient >>> accounts have anything to do with Harry Potter, a character in a >>> modern work of fiction. >> I agree, they don't have anything to do with it, except that drawing >> support for the Bible's claims on this basis is like trying to support >> Harry Potter by mentioning London. If you believe the Bible is Truth >> because of these sites, then you should believe that Harry Potter is >> Truth for the same reason. >> >> Nevertheless, all I had to do to get a >> >>> response about Harry Potter was mention Hezekiah's tunnel, a conduit >>> for water constructed during the Assyrian invasion or the earthen ramp >>> that the Assyrian army built to get over the city wall at Lachish. >>> According to atheists, these evidences of the Assyrian invasion were >>> exactly like Harry Potter leaving for wizard's school. >> We believe you're trying to show Biblical authority by mentioning these >> sites. While you persist in this logical fallacy, we're going to stick >> with the Harry Potter comparrison. :-) >> >> Anyone hysterical yet? > > I gave up after using two further examples and some further comments. > Spiderman and the Iliad. > > I don't like to deal with the deliberately obtuse. I'm getting there too. I've tried to be polite and patient. But there's only so many ways of restating an argument for understandability. I'm still not sure that he sees the fallacy.
From: BuddyThunder on 19 Jun 2008 01:56 rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 18, 12:56�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>> reasonable to say "mainstream view" or something similar. Some theists >>>>>> really seem to feel that a cabal of atheists is fabricating the primary >>>>>> evidence across all disciplines to make God look irrelevant. Is it a >>>>>> persecution complex?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> No, it is a fact. � There is nothing that can be said today that does >>>>> not have at least a few pin-headed atheists presenting some kind of >>>>> opposing idea. >>>> So it's atheists involved in reality-denial, huh? *cough* >>> That is what atheists do. >> Why do you think that, can you justify it? Atheists tend to be more >> skeptical than credulous, quite the reverse is true of theists. Don't >> you think atheists would tend to test claims for reliability more than >> theists would? > > Atheists have an agenda. They do not do anything whatsoever unless > they believe it will in some way disprove the existence of God. That > is why atheists are such useless people. What agenda do I, as an atheist, have? My every waking moment isn't dedicated to destroying the notion of God, I simply have much better things to get on with. I'm fascinated by religion and like to know more about how theists see the world, that's all. Sorry to threaten you, it wasn't intentional. I'm sad that you see me as useless too. Slightly offended, but mostly sad that you would blanket-judge a whole group, simply because they don't share your religious belief. For what it's worth, I see you as religiously deluded, but totally human - with all the nobility and weakness that it comes with. I also see you as an individual - it seems you cannot return that honour. I had hoped you would be a little more open-minded.
From: BuddyThunder on 19 Jun 2008 02:00 rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 18, 6:02�am, asilentskeptic <asilentskep...(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> On Jun 18, 5:07 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > >>>> Again, my proof for those gods is just as real as the proof you are >>>> providing for you assertions. >>> Why don't you decide for yourself, since you ask the question? �Don't >>> you atheists ever decide anything? �All your question shows me is that >>> you have never read the Biblical account of the Assyrian invasion of >>> Judea. �The Bible tells everything the Assyrians did in their >>> invasion. �The Jews had no way of stopping them. �It can be verified >>> by things that still exist today like the earthen ramp over the city >>> wall at Lachish. �So here comes a modern atheist all ready to discuss >>> the Assyrian invasion of Judea. �Harry Potter, Spiderman, and >>> Achilles. �There, the Bible has been proven wrong. >>> Ok, if you think you have proven the Bible wrong, you think you have >>> proven the Bible wrong. �There is no reason to discuss it forever, but >>> I am sure we have not heard the last of Spiderman. >>> Robert B. Winn >> I am not disagreeing with the idea that there is a tunnel or an >> invasion or whatever. The Bible has a fair amount of history in it. (I >> am quite familiar with the Bible having grown up in a private school >> where it was required reading and a new passage had to be memorized >> every week). I am not disagreeing with the assertion that the Bible >> has some accurate history in it. >> >> I am just saying that the verifiability of some of the parts does not >> make the total completely true (hence the example of Homer and the >> Iliad). > > The verifiability of some of the parts does not make the Bible totally > false, either. I totally accept that. But why would you trust it, when it's authority is dubious? Especially given that some parts are contradictory, and some parts are flat-out wrong.
From: BuddyThunder on 19 Jun 2008 02:20
Smiler wrote: > "Alex W." <ingilt(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > news:6br2q9F3cun1hU1(a)mid.individual.net... >> "Smiler" <Smiler(a)Joe.King.com> wrote in message >> news:JuY5k.18241$GF6.13788(a)newsfe27.ams2... >>> "Alex W." <ingilt(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message >>> news:6bqug1F3d3mb3U1(a)mid.individual.net... >>>> "Smiler" <Smiler(a)Joe.King.com> wrote in message >>>> news:%3H5k.124800$TL1.74387(a)newsfe21.ams2... >>>>> "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" <alwhipp(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote in >>>>> message >>>> >>>>>> I haven't got any slugs. :-( >>>>> I can assure you that you're not missing anything. >>>>> The buggers eat their fill of our vegetables as they grow. >>>> Have you tried drowning them? >>>> Half-fill a jam jar with beer, bury it close to the vegetables, and wait >>>> for the slugs to suffer a death far more pleasant than they deserve. >>>> >>> I've heard of that, but haven't tried it yet. >>> Which do they prefer? Real ale or Lager :-) >>> >> I'd suggest Speckled Hen. >> That way, once you have filled the death-trap, you can enjoy the rest >> yourself. >> > > I've never acquired the taste for ale. I prefer cider or wine. > That may be because, in my youth, I worked in a laboratory where they were > extracting the bittering component from hops. > Imagine green/black 'Marmite' with the most intense bitter taste you can > imagine. Yeuck! > I think I may like 'Real' beer...ale without hops... but I've never found > anywhere that sells it. > Even the 'homebrew' kits have the hop extract already mixed in with the malt > :-( You were extracting the alpha acids? :-) I do a little homebrew, the pre-made kits are horrible. I'm an extract brewer, but I use unhopped extracts (dry and liquid) and extra adjuncts etc. Great fun, and occasionally you get a cracker. And some swill too. |