Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: rbwinn on 19 Jun 2008 19:43 On Jun 18, 11:42 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 18, 4:45 pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > >>news:21d2e037-7498-4d49-bb95-5a308e107d58(a)j33g2000pri.googlegroups.com.... > > >>> On Jun 18, 12:14 pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > >>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >>>>news:c44cff96-90ef-45f4-badc-413fcf95321e(a)m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > >>>>> On Jun 17, 10:41�am, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > >>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>news:f8121cc3-37c1-4561-b7cc-b6292578b7f1(a)34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com... > >>>>>>> All atheists I talk to indicate to me that if they do not have a > >>>>>>> written record of something, then it did not exist, and if the > >>>>>>> written > >>>>>>> record is the Bible, then it still did not exist. > >>>>>> Liar. > >>>>>> We have simply told you on many occasions that the magical events > >>>>>> which > >>>>>> were > >>>>>> supposed to have taken place in your Bible are uncorroborated by any > >>>>>> other > >>>>>> source. > >>>>>> Meanwhile, all you can do is bleat about ramps and conduits, which > >>>>>> offer > >>>>>> no > >>>>>> proof at all that the supposed magical events actually happened, or > >>>>>> that > >>>>>> the > >>>>>> main characters depicted in the book actually existed. > >>>>>> You are either incapable of listening, or unwilling to listen. > >>>>>> -- > >>>>> Hey, you atheists thought Harry Potter was going to make the tunnels > >>>>> and ramps disappear. > >>>> We did no such thing. > >>>> You simply offered that as a straw man argument to disguise your weak > >>>> position. > >>> I was not arguing about anything.  If you atheists want to believe in > >>> Harry Potter, go ahead and believe in him.  I just said that there was > >>> a tunnel between Gihon spring and the Pool of Siloam, exactly the way > >>> three books of the Old Testament say there is, and there is an earthen > >>> ramp over the city wall at the ruins of Lachish.  You want to be cute > >>> about it, so go ahead and be cute. > >>> Robert B. Winn > >> Now explain why the existence of this tunnel and ramp and the fact that they > >> are mentioned in the bible is evidence that the rest of the magic story is > >> real. > > > So what you would have me believe is that there are only two things > > mentioned in the Bible that are real, an earthen ramp and a conduit > > for water.  I think that there are other things mentioned in the Bible > > that are real. > > I'm sure there are other things that are true in the Bible, but they > require independent verification before we'll know. > > As you well know, London exists just as decribed in Harry Potter, but > that's no reason to accept flying broomsticks. Flying broomsticks would > require independent evidence. We don't have any. So there's no > compelling reason to believe in it. > > Jerusalem exists, just as described in the Bible, but that's no reason > to accept a six-literal-day creation. A six day creation would require > independent evidence. We don't have any. We have overwhelming evidence > for an old earth. So there's no compelling reason to believe in a young > earth.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, you atheists insist on relativity of time except in one circumstance, the creation of the earth. When it comes to dinosaurs, you insist on absolute time, just like Isaac Newton. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 19 Jun 2008 19:45 On Jun 18, 11:45 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 18, 12:13�pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > >>news:87b0e53d-5a57-49b1-b3d0-a331560793fb(a)c65g2000hsa.googlegroups.com.... > > >>> On Jun 17, 10:37 am, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > >>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >>>>news:d6db0a86-413e-4057-a2cf-40363e9b8a34(a)a1g2000hsb.googlegroups.com.... > >>>>> Well some people might not be convinced by your video footage. There > >>>>> are many people who believe that the Apollo moon landings were faked. > >>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>> It's not my fault if other people have mental health problems or are > >>>> gullible enough to swallow any wild- assed claim they come across. > >>>> Anyway, if my video footage is insufficient evidence, what makes your > >>>> 2,000 > >>>> year old book o' blood and that silly Mormon bible more convincing? > >>> Well, you atheists did not do very well with regard to the Assyrian > >>> invasion of Judea. > >> I can assure you we had absolutely nothing to do with it. > > >>> The Bible seems to have its facts a lot straighter > >>> than you atheists do. > >> There are very few facts in the bible at all. > >> It is a magic story based around real (and sometimes non- existent ) > >> locations. > > >>> Was there some other specific thing that you > >>> atheists wanted to discuss? > >> How about your inability to differentiate fantasy from reality? > > > I think I do fairly well.  Hezekiah's tunnel is real.  The earthen > > ramp over the city wall at Lachish is real.  Harry Potter is not real. > > Ah, but London is! Is the Bible? It may be, we haven't refuted anything > yet. But your logic is not supportive of your claims.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I actually know a man from London, England. I make doors and window frames for him sometimes. He soes not believe in Harry Potter either. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 19 Jun 2008 19:55 On Jun 19, 12:02�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > <snip> > > > > > > >>>>>> Says the believer in a magic sky fairy that magically inseminated a virgin > >>>>>> so that she could magically remain a virgin and magically produce his magic > >>>>>> son who went on to do magic tricks, like magically turning water into wine, > >>>>>> magically walking on water and and magically feeding 5000 people with the > >>>>>> scantest of supplies. This magic son, although supposedly dead, magically > >>>>>> came back to life and then magically disappeared. All evidence, outside of > >>>>>> the of the only book supposedly describing these magical happenings, > >>>>>> magically disappeared. This believer apparently also believes that a magic > >>>>>> angel magically came to earth with a magic set of golden disks and gave them > >>>>>> to a well known fraudster to magically translate into English and then, > >>>>>> magically, the disks disappeared. This believer also talks to the magic sky > >>>>>> beings to magically get them to work their magic in his favour. Does he also > >>>>>> wear magic underwear...curious minds and all that. > >>>>>> And I haven't even started on the OT, yet. > >>>>>> Smiler, > >>>>>> The godless one > >>>>>> a.a.# 2279- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> You haven't started on anything. > >>>> This is a scant rebuttal. How is he wrong?- Hide quoted text - > >>> I did not spend any great amount of time studying his statement. �As > >>> far as I could tell there was nothing true in it. > >> This seems to read like "I don't like it, so I won't accept/believe it". > > >> What specifically rings false about it? I'd like to know how you assess > >> statements for truth.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > The entire thing was false as far as I could tell. �What was there in > > it that you thought was true? > > Your religion believes that Jesus was born of a virgin? Jesus reportedly > turned water into wine.... There are no known natural mechanisms by > which these things could happen, hence the characterisation as magic. > Should I go on? > > You haven't been able to tell me how you assay for truth, maybe you > don't know yourself? There's no shame in that, a lot of people don't > think about these things.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I do not worry about mysteries like that. Whatever their explanation, they will not save any souls. The atonement of Christ is what Christians need to understand. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 19 Jun 2008 19:58 On Jun 19, 12:02 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 18, 5:11�pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: > >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > >>news:11f01f12-6b83-46c8-8c82-cf8e71cdb53e(a)w4g2000prd.googlegroups.com.... > >> On Jun 18, 12:04 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>> On Jun 17, 12:17 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>> On Jun 16, 4:50?pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: > >>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>>news:2709c51e-e0df-48bc-9796-1c51dad9600d(a)d45g2000hsc.googlegroups..com... > >>>>>>> On Jun 16, 1:36 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jun 16, 1:19?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> Smiler wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> "BuddyThunder" <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in message > >>>>>>>>>>>news:4854e421$1(a)clear.net.nz... > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 4:20 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 13, 7:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 12, 7:30?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:21:20 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 11, 6:46?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 05:58:19 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 10, 5:20?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:34:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 10, 12:40?am, BuddyThunder > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you want us to believe some of the history of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> places, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep it > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming. If you want us to believe in the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extraordinary > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supernatural > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, you're going to have to bring something > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> new.- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hide > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, with regard to the Assyrian invasion of Judea, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> book > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isaiah claims that a supernatural event took place. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Isaiah > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> says that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the night an angel of the Lord went into the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> camp > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrians and slew 186,000 soldiers in one night. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Besorus, a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chaldean > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historian, says that the Assyrian army died of plague > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> besieging > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jerusalem. ?Of course, the Chaldeans were idol > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worshippers > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrians. ?Still, this event was of some interest to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Babylonians were planning a conquest of Assyria. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a fact, however, that Sennacherib abandoned the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seige of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jerusalem and fled back to Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know enough about the history of the time to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happened, but I am sure that historians do. If there > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disastrous > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> series of deaths, various diseases are a much more > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bet > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Angel of the Lord. No evidence backs up that claim..- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hide > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quoted > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I would have to go with the angel of the Lord.. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?The > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chaldean > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historians were quite a ways from the actual event. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, you ignored the Wikipedia entry. Your dishonesty is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noted.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Bible account is much better than the Wickipedia one. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Too > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> many > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> atheists on the staff of Wickipedia. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no idea how Wikipedia works. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Bible account is not consistent with the evidence.- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hide > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quoted > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Biblical account is obviously true, and the Wickipedia > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> based on Sennacherib's story of what happened in the war > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jews. ?Sennacherib's account is obviously the fabricated > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What makes that "obvious" to you, exactly?- Hide quoted > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib's account is like listening to an atheist. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you mean that it sounds non-hysterical and plausible?- Hide > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quoted > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it sounds hysterical and irrational. > >>>>>>>>>>>> What, specifically, strikes you that way? > >>>>>>>>>>> It's not like the voices in his head. > >>>>>>>>>> Crazy huh? I have not received an answer to this yet, I'm not > >>>>>>>>>> expecting > >>>>>>>>>> one.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> Atheists always sound hysterical and irrational to me. > >>>>>>>> Why? Could you provide an example? Do I sound hysterical?- Hide > >>>>>>>> quoted > >>>>>>>> text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Well, yes. ? Harry Potter, Harry Potter, Harry Potter. ?You seem to > >>>>>>> be > >>>>>>> crying out for magic to save you. > >>>>>>> ------------------------------------------- > >>>>>>> Says the believer in a magic sky fairy that magically inseminated a > >>>>>>> virgin > >>>>>>> so that she could magically remain a virgin and magically produce his > >>>>>>> magic > >>>>>>> son who went on to do magic tricks, like magically turning water into > >>>>>>> wine, > >>>>>>> magically walking on water and and magically feeding 5000 people with > >>>>>>> the > >>>>>>> scantest of supplies. This magic son, although supposedly dead, > >>>>>>> magically > >>>>>>> came back to life and then magically disappeared. All evidence, > >>>>>>> outside of > >>>>>>> the of the only book supposedly describing these magical happenings, > >>>>>>> magically disappeared. This believer apparently also believes that a > >>>>>>> magic > >>>>>>> angel magically came to earth with a magic set of golden disks and > >>>>>>> gave them > >>>>>>> to a well known fraudster to magically translate into English and > >>>>>>> then, > >>>>>>> magically, the disks disappeared. This believer also talks to the > >>>>>>> magic sky > >>>>>>> beings to magically get them to work their magic in his favour. Does > >>>>>>> he also > >>>>>>> wear magic underwear...curious minds and all that. > >>>>>>> And I haven't even started on the OT, yet. > >>>>>>> Smiler, > >>>>>>> The godless one > >>>>>>> a.a.# 2279- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>> You haven't started on anything. > >>>>> This is a scant rebuttal. How is he wrong?- Hide quoted text - > >>>> I did not spend any great amount of time studying his statement. As > >>>> far as I could tell there was nothing true in it. > >>> This seems to read like "I don't like it, so I won't accept/believe it". > >>> What specifically rings false about it? I'd like to know how you assess > >>> statements for truth.- Hide quoted text - > >>> - Show quoted text - > >> The entire thing was false as far as I could tell. �What was there in > >> it that you thought was true? > >> -------------------------------------------- > >> The burden of proof is on the accuser! > >> You asserted it was untrue....You prove it. > >> Otherwise it stands as true. > > >> Smiler, > > Well, you need to file the case in court, Smiler.  These things are > > not just automatic. > > They are if you want to be believed. Maybe that's not your motivation > though. <shrug>- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I do not care what you believe. You need to decide for yourself. I have only met one atheist who converted to Christianity in my life. She said she was staying in a hotel and started reading the scriptures that were in the hotel dresser drawer. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 19 Jun 2008 20:00
On Jun 19, 12:06�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > <snip> > > > Well, what you are saying is that the Biblical account of the Assyrian > > invasion of Judea is fiction. �What part of it do you claim is > > fiction? �So far we have discussed the earthen ramp and Hezekiah's > > tunnel. �Are you still claiming that those are fiction? > > You're still claiming London doesn't exist, huh? > > I don't know either account, so really don't have an opinion. Have you > considered that maybe neither account is accurate? If pressed, I would > go with the explanation with the best evidential support. I don't have a > reason to decide at this point. > > Happy to be agnostic on something! OK, well, my opinion is that unless an atheist has an opinion about Hezekiah's tunnel and the earthen ramp, it is a waste of time to try to discuss the Bible with that person. Robert B. Winn |