Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Smiler on 19 Jun 2008 21:11 "Alex W." <ingilt(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:6bvlrtF3d3pboU1(a)mid.individual.net... > > "Smiler" <Smiler(a)Joe.King.com> wrote in message > news:0gj6k.4355$Nn.945(a)newsfe09.ams2... >> >> "Alex W." <ingilt(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message >> news:6btov1F3bfnvbU1(a)mid.individual.net... >>> >>> "Smiler" <Smiler(a)Joe.King.com> wrote in message >>> news:cbh6k.25015$GF6.7689(a)newsfe27.ams2... >>>> >>>> "Alex W." <ingilt(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message >>>> news:6br2q9F3cun1hU1(a)mid.individual.net... >>>>> >>>>> "Smiler" <Smiler(a)Joe.King.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:JuY5k.18241$GF6.13788(a)newsfe27.ams2... >>>>>> >>>>>> "Alex W." <ingilt(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message >>>>>> news:6bqug1F3d3mb3U1(a)mid.individual.net... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Smiler" <Smiler(a)Joe.King.com> wrote in message >>>>>>> news:%3H5k.124800$TL1.74387(a)newsfe21.ams2... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" <alwhipp(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote in >>>>>>>> message >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I haven't got any slugs. :-( >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I can assure you that you're not missing anything. >>>>>>>> The buggers eat their fill of our vegetables as they grow. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Have you tried drowning them? >>>>>>> Half-fill a jam jar with beer, bury it close to the vegetables, and >>>>>>> wait for the slugs to suffer a death far more pleasant than they >>>>>>> deserve. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I've heard of that, but haven't tried it yet. >>>>>> Which do they prefer? Real ale or Lager :-) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I'd suggest Speckled Hen. >>>>> That way, once you have filled the death-trap, you can enjoy the rest >>>>> yourself. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I've never acquired the taste for ale. I prefer cider or wine. >>>> That may be because, in my youth, I worked in a laboratory where they >>>> were extracting the bittering component from hops. >>>> Imagine green/black 'Marmite' with the most intense bitter taste you >>>> can imagine. Yeuck! >>>> I think I may like 'Real' beer...ale without hops... but I've never >>>> found anywhere that sells it. >>>> Even the 'homebrew' kits have the hop extract already mixed in with the >>>> malt :-( >>> >>> I don't need to imagine Marmite. I eat it every day. God's food. Puts >>> hair on your chest. >>> >>> I'm not sure if it would work with any other alcoholic drink; I suppose >>> you could try some sweet wine. Cider is better not wasted on slugs >>> (unless it's that commercial abomination Magner's, in which case I'd >>> recommend using it to wash your urinal cakes) >> >> Or Autumn Gold...you turn yellow and fall 'out of your tree' :-) > > A fate worse than death .... > > >> >> -- much better to drink it yourself. After the >>> third pint of scrumpy, you simply won't care about slugs .... >> >> If it's good scrumpy, I don't get as far as the third pint! > > Fair point! > > >> >> A West Country publican once told my father about the Northern 'beer >> drinkers' that come to his pub. >> They try a pint of scrumpy and say "It tastes nice but it's weak!". After >> a few pints, at closing time, they walk into the fresh air and >> immediately collapse in a heap on the floor! > > Yep, been there, done that. > Best scrumpy I ever had came in plastic gallon jugs from a farmer selling > them by the roadside. You could still taste the rat that drowned in it. > Amazing stuff .... what little I can remember. > The best cider I ever tasted was from a pub in Kent almost 50 years ago. There was a barrel on the bar, covered in a damp towel to keep it cool. The liquid was dark brown and cloudy, but tasted like sweet apple nectar. A half pint of that was enought to make my youthful self quite merry ;-). You can't buy stuff like that today, as it was unpasteurised. The nearest I've had since was in a quayside pub in Polperro, Cornwall in 1976. I went back a couple of years later, but they'd stopped selling it. >>> >>> Farmer's markets sometimes have a stall selling real ale and other such >>> liquids. Might be worth a look .... >>> >> >> Not the one's round E17. >> Sometime the 'French' market has a stall selling French apple juice and >> cider, but no beer or ale at any I've been to. > > E17? > Ye gods .... I had to go look that up, it's so far out. > :-) > You must live in one of the London toilets (WC1 or WC2). Smiler, The godless one a.a.# 2279
From: Smiler on 19 Jun 2008 21:34 "rbwinn" <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> wrote in message news:8e39d5ef-1785-434a-a2b8-9736a35101b5(a)q24g2000prf.googlegroups.com... On Jun 18, 12:07 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 17, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jun 16, 1:36 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jun 16, 1:19?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> Smiler wrote: > >>>>>>> "BuddyThunder" <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in message > >>>>>>>news:4854e421$1(a)clear.net.nz... > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 4:20 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 13, 7:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 12, 7:30?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:21:20 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 11, 6:46?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 11 Jun 2008 05:58:19 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 10, 5:20?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 14:34:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 10, 12:40?am, BuddyThunder > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you want us to believe some of the history of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these places, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> keep it > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> coming. If you want us to believe in the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extraordinary > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> supernatural > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, you're going to have to bring something new.- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hide > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, with regard to the Assyrian invasion of Judea, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the book > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Isaiah claims that a supernatural event took place. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Isaiah > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> says that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> during the night an angel of the Lord went into the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> camp of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrians and slew 186,000 soldiers in one night. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Besorus, a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chaldean > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historian, says that the Assyrian army died of plague > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> while > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> besieging > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jerusalem. ?Of course, the Chaldeans were idol > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> worshippers like > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrians. ?Still, this event was of some interest to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Babylonians were planning a conquest of Assyria. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It is a fact, however, that Sennacherib abandoned the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> seige of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jerusalem and fled back to Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't know enough about the history of the time to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have any > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> idea what > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> happened, but I am sure that historians do. If there > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disastrous > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> series of deaths, various diseases are a much more > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> likely bet > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Angel of the Lord. No evidence backs up that claim.- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hide quoted > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I would have to go with the angel of the Lord. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?The > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Chaldean > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> historians were quite a ways from the actual event. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, you ignored the Wikipedia entry. Your dishonesty is > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> again > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> noted.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Bible account is much better than the Wickipedia one. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Too many > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> atheists on the staff of Wickipedia. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no idea how Wikipedia works. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Bible account is not consistent with the evidence.- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hide quoted > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Biblical account is obviously true, and the Wickipedia > >>>>>>>>>>>>> account is > >>>>>>>>>>>>> based on Sennacherib's story of what happened in the war > >>>>>>>>>>>>> with the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jews. ?Sennacherib's account is obviously the fabricated > >>>>>>>>>>>>> one. > >>>>>>>>>>>> What makes that "obvious" to you, exactly?- Hide quoted > >>>>>>>>>>>> text - > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib's account is like listening to an atheist. > >>>>>>>>>> Do you mean that it sounds non-hysterical and plausible?- Hide > >>>>>>>>>> quoted > >>>>>>>>>> text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> No, it sounds hysterical and irrational. > >>>>>>>> What, specifically, strikes you that way? > >>>>>>> It's not like the voices in his head. > >>>>>> Crazy huh? I have not received an answer to this yet, I'm not > >>>>>> expecting one.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Atheists always sound hysterical and irrational to me. > >>>> Why? Could you provide an example? Do I sound hysterical?- Hide > >>>> quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> Well, yes. Harry Potter, Harry Potter, Harry Potter. You seem to be > >>> crying out for magic to save you. > >> No, I have no greater belief in magic than you do. Substantially less, > >> actually. So that's what passes for hysteria in your world? I'm calm, > >> rational and reasonably pleasant I hope. Any other examples of my > >> conniptions?- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > So why can't you atheists talk about anything other than Harry Potter > > and Gone with the Wind? > > Because you haven't addressed the point we're making anywhere in this > thread. You've denied it, but not rebuffed it. > > If it makes you feel more comfortable, substitute your favourite fiction > based in fact for Harry Potter. We've had comics mentioning New York > suggested, Oliver Twist is set outside London, Trinity by Leon Uris and > the Haj by the same author are set in the Holy Land if you want > something closer to your heart.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, what you are saying is that the Biblical account of the Assyrian invasion of Judea is fiction. What part of it do you claim is fiction? So far we have discussed the earthen ramp and Hezekiah's tunnel. Are you still claiming that those are fiction? ---------------------------------------------------- So you believe London doesn't exist. I suggest you discuss that with Boris. Smiler, The godless one a.a.# 2279
From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 19 Jun 2008 22:56 On Jun 19, 10:40 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jun 18, 9:19 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > > <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > > On Jun 19, 1:18 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 18, 5:41�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > > > On Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:07:49 -0700 (PDT), asilentskeptic > > > > <asilentskep...(a)gmail.com> wrote in alt.atheism: > > > > > >On Jun 18, 12:51 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >> > On Jun 16, 11:29 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >> >> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >> >>> On Jun 16, 1:19 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >> >>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >> >>>>> On Jun 16, 12:50 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >> >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >> >>>>>>> On Jun 15, 6:32?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > > >> >>>>>>>> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:46:58 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi....(a)juno.com> > > > > >> >>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 6:33?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:48:13 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 14, 6:52?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 06:45:55 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 12, 9:45?pm, none <""doug\"@(none)"> wrote: > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think you should explain your ideas to the twelve apostles after the > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> resurrection takes place, Darrell. > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So you do not know how many there are (if any) or their names > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and you just hide behind the statement above to cover your > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ignorance. ?Just like in your failed attempts to argue > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> physics, you do not even know enough to argue your religious > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs and have to retreat to claiming ignorance.. > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not claim ignorance. ?I just told Darrell to look them up > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>>> himself. > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>>> You admit failure, no matter how you describe it. > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Why, because Darrell is not going to look them up? ?I do not care what > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>>> Darrell does. > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> You told him to look it up because you didn't have the evidence. You ran > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> away from the question.- Hide quoted text - > > > > >> >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> Nope. ?I told atheists a long time ago I was not going to be their > > > > >> >>>>>>>>> researcher. > > > > >> >>>>>>>> You refuse to do the research to back up your own claims. You are no > > > > >> >>>>>>>> one's researcher. You worship ignorance.- Hide quoted text - > > > > >> >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > > > >> >>>>>>> Well, I did a little �better than the atheists on Hezekiah's tunnel > > > > >> >>>>>>> and the ramp over the city wall at Lachish. > > > > >> >>>>>> No. You only think you did. For some reason. Could you tell us why?- Hide quoted text - > > > > >> >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > > > >> >>>>> Yes, I can do that. �There is an actual earthen ramp built by the > > > > >> >>>>> Assyrian army that still exists today. �There is an actual conduit for > > > > >> >>>>> water between Gihon spring and the Pool of Siloam, just as the Bible > > > > >> >>>>> says there is. �The problem that atheists have is that J.K. Rowling is > > > > >> >>>>> from northern England. �When she wrote about Harry Potter leaving from > > > > >> >>>>> the train station in London, probably the only thing she knew about > > > > >> >>>>> the train station was its name. � So comparing the Biblical account, > > > > >> >>>>> which can be easily verified by going to Israel and looking at the > > > > >> >>>>> ramp and the conduit for water, to what J.K. Rowling wrote in a book > > > > >> >>>>> which she said was fiction means nothing to me, however sacred it may > > > > >> >>>>> be to you atheists. > > > > >> >>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > > >> >>>> So, substituting ... > > > > >> >>>> Yes, I can do that. �There is an actual major city founded by the > > > > >> >>>> Romans that still exists today. �There is an actual railway station, > > > > >> >>>> just as Harry Potter says there is. > > > > >> >>>> We know that Harry Potter is fiction. You're claiming Biblical authority > > > > >> >>>> SOLELY on the existence of some mentioned ancient sites. We're pointing > > > > >> >>>> out that by the same logic, you would be forced to admit Harry Potter's > > > > >> >>>> authority. If can't t accept its authority, then your argument need > > > > >> >>>> reexamination. Maybe the Bible needs more support for its extraordinary > > > > >> >>>> claims.- Hide quoted text - > > > > >> >>>> - Show quoted text - > > > > >> >>> There is also a woman who calls herself J.K. Rowling who says she > > > > >> >>> wrote the Harry Potter books as fiction, regardless of how many > > > > >> >>> atheists believe them. > > > > >> >>> I am not claiming Biblical authority SOLEY on the existence of some > > > > >> >>> mentioned ancient sites. �An atheist claimed that there was nothing in > > > > >> >>> the Bible that could be verified by anything that exists today, so I > > > > >> >>> mentioned Hezekiah's tunnel. �It was not an argument.. > > > > >> >> We'll have to take your word about the claim, but okay. You were > > > > >> >> correct, and I don't think that point is contended. Some things in the > > > > >> >> Bible are verifiable. > > > > > >> >>> It was information about something mentioned in the Bible that can be seen > > > > >> >>> today. �And as we can see, atheists still claim that Hezekiah's tunnel > > > > >> >>> is exactly like Harry Potter leaving for wizard's school, including > > > > >> >>> you. �No, Hezekiah's tunnel is not exactly like Harry Potter leaving > > > > >> >>> for wizard's school. �You atheists are not going to be able to > > > > >> >>> convince me that Hezekiah's tunnel is exactly like Harry Potter > > > > >> >>> leaving for wizard's school. �As long as you continue to try to > > > > >> >>> convince me that Hezekiah's tunnel is exactly like Harry Potter > > > > >> >>> leaving for wizard's school, I will continue to say that you do not > > > > >> >>> believe Hezekiah's tunnel exists because Harry Potter does not exist > > > > >> >>> and wizard's school does not exist. > > > > >> >> Then you would be persisting in your error. If you were simply trying to > > > > >> >> say that at least SOME of the Bible is true, then okay, you've made your > > > > >> >> point. We thought you were arguing for the accuracy of the WHOLE on the > > > > >> >> basis of these minor points. Okay, a whole lot of arguing over nothing > > > > >> >> now that we know what your claim really is. (Is that it?) > > > > > >> >> If you are saying that Hezekiah's > > > > > >> >>> tunnel is exactly like Harry Potter leaving for wizard's school, then > > > > >> >>> you are saying that Hezekiah's tunnel does not exist. > > > > >> >> That is of course a deliberate misrepresentation, but I think I can > > > > >> >> understand why you're making it now.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > >> >> - Show quoted text - > > > > > >> > It is not a deliberate misrepresentation. �The Biblical account of the > > > > >> > Assyrian invasion of Judea is much more believable than any other > > > > >> > account of the same events, including the account of Sennacherib, the > > > > >> > Assyrian king, which is the account that atheists promote because it > > > > >> > is different from the Biblical one. > > > > > >> You would need to say WHY you find it more believable than the > > > > >> mainstream account if you want any support for your views. I don't have > > > > >> any familiarity with the events in question, so I don't have an opinion > > > > >> either way (or some third, unexplored option), depite being an evil atheist. > > > > > >> > But none of these ancient > > > > >> > accounts have anything to do with Harry Potter, a character in a > > > > >> > modern work of fiction. > > > > > >> I agree, they don't have anything to do with it, except that drawing > > > > >> support for the Bible's claims on this basis is like trying to support > > > > >> Harry Potter by mentioning London. If you believe the Bible is Truth > > > > >> because of these sites, then you should believe that Harry Potter is > > > > >> Truth for the same reason. > > > > > >> � �Nevertheless, all I had to do to get a > > > > > >> > response about Harry Potter was mention Hezekiah's tunnel, a conduit > > > > >> > for water constructed during the Assyrian invasion or the earthen ramp > > > > >> > that the Assyrian army built to get over the city wall at Lachish. > > > > >> > According to atheists, these evidences of the Assyrian invasion were > > > > >> > exactly like Harry Potter leaving for wizard's school. > > > > > >> We believe you're trying to show Biblical authority by mentioning these > > > > >> sites. While you persist in this logical fallacy, we're going to stick > > > > >> with the Harry Potter comparrison. :-) > > > > > >> Anyone hysterical yet? > > > > > >I gave up after using two further examples and some further comments. > > > > >Spiderman and the Iliad. > > > > > >I don't like to deal with the deliberately obtuse. > > > > > Yes, Mr. Winn has gone beyond merely being obtuse to being intentionally > > > > dishonest. Even the LDS and other Christians should chastise him for his > > > > lies. I don't expect him to ever repent of his foolish dishonesty.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > Well, I mentioned two things, a ramp and a conduit for water > > > constructed during the Assyrian invasion of Judea. Which of those do > > > you claim I lied about? > > > Robert B. Winn > > > You lied about the reason for posting those two "facts". The bible > > mentions cows too, and there are cows. We'll ignore the cud-chewing > > rabbits for the moment, but no-one said everything mentioned in the > > bible was falsehood. Just that it was generally a work of fiction. > > You then leapt in and told everyone that "Atheists are always saying > > everything in the bible is false." LIE. > > > Al- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Well, no, it is not a lie, Al. Even if an atheist appears to say that > something in the Bible is true, there is always something in the > statement they make that claims it is also false. For instance, with > regard to the two things I mentioned, it is impossible for an atheist > to discuss these two things without also discussing Harry Potter, > Spiderman, or some other fictional thing that shows what they really > think about it. Look at your statement. The Bible mentions cows, but > the Bible mentions rabbits chewing cud, so the mention of cows in the > Bible proves that the Bible is untrue. Atheists are incapable of > discussing the Bible rationally. > Robert B. Winn I'm thinking you're incapable of discussing the bible rationally. I didn't at any stage say that the bible mentioning cows makes it false. Your interpretations of what people are saying is massively out of line with what is being said. What I think we can all agree on is that pretty much every book has some truths and some falsities. Yes, Cows and Tunnels do exist. But they can't be used to prove other aspects in the book. If there were hundreds of other sources claiming Rabbits chewed their cud then we might start to think it's true, and if we could physically verify that this happens, we would accept it as true. But we're not discounting it simply because it's in the bible. We're saying that is false because it's verifiably false because of what we can see about rabbit behaviour and several million dissections. It would be logically inconsistent to say something is wrong because it's in the bible. That would be a circular argument. Al
From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 19 Jun 2008 23:06 On Jun 20, 9:03 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jun 18, 11:17�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > > rbwinn wrote: > > > On Jun 18, 1:08 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>> The tunnel, in an historical context 'could be called a fake'? > > >>>> The ramp in an historical context 'could be called a fake'? > > >>> That is correct, and in fact an atheist a few years back did claim > > >>> that Hezekiah's tunnel was a hoax. � But we have to look at the world > > >>> today and consider, who would move the amount of dirt in the ramp or > > >>> dig a tunnel just to perpetrate a hoax? �The Biblical account is the > > >>> correct one. > > >> Did you find one? A tunnel-denier?! I'd LOVE to see the post!! I think > > >> I'd frame the freakin' thing! > > > >> Your conclusion is faulty. It MIGHT be right, but it likely isn't.- Hide quoted text - > > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > > Well, it is not faulty. �Where are you going to find people today who > > > would make a ramp or a tunnel without being paid a lot of money? > > > Back then, they were working pretty much without pay. > > > Can you produce that post? I really would love to see it, it might quell > > those cries of "liar!" for a bit. :-) > > > Not sure what point you're making about the sites. Can you expand on it?- Hide quoted text - > > Some atheist a couple of years ago claimed that Hezekiah's tunnel was > a hoax perpetrated by Jerusalem tour guides. > Robert B. Winn So? No-one in this thread made that claim as far as I recall. And even if someone did make that claim, that's not the point anyone but you is trying to argue. Al
From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 19 Jun 2008 23:25
On Jun 20, 10:00 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jun 19, 12:06�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > > rbwinn wrote: > > > <snip> > > > > Well, what you are saying is that the Biblical account of the Assyrian > > > invasion of Judea is fiction. �What part of it do you claim is > > > fiction? �So far we have discussed the earthen ramp and Hezekiah's > > > tunnel. �Are you still claiming that those are fiction? > > > You're still claiming London doesn't exist, huh? > > > I don't know either account, so really don't have an opinion. Have you > > considered that maybe neither account is accurate? If pressed, I would > > go with the explanation with the best evidential support. I don't have a > > reason to decide at this point. > > > Happy to be agnostic on something! > > OK, well, my opinion is that unless an atheist has an opinion about > Hezekiah's tunnel and the earthen ramp, it is a waste of time to try > to discuss the Bible with that person. > Robert B. Winn Then why do you keep trying to discuss the bible with everyone? You were the one to raise the issue of the tunnel. No-one since has argued that the tunnel doesn't exist. Was there some other detail of the tunnel you wanted to discuss? The methods of stone work maybe? The previous two water courses? Al |