Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 18 Jul 2008 05:56 On Jul 18, 11:01 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jul 17, 9:06�am, The Loan Arranger <no...(a)nowhere.invalid> wrote: > > > > > rbwinn wrote: > > > On Jul 17, 4:11 am, The Loan Arranger <no...(a)nowhere.invalid> wrote: > > >> ...and any psychopath with temporal lobe epilepsy or schizophrenia who > > >> believes that massacring groups or whole races is OK, because they've > > >> God on their side. However, the point that you're trying to dodge, and > > >> failing, is that as much evil is done in the name of religion, in this > > >> case Christian religion, as is done by those with none - probably more. > > >> If you don't find that an uncomfortable truth, you need to recalibrate > > >> your humanity. > > > >> TLA- Hide quoted text - > > > > Well, I don't really see much evidence of it. �Stalin and Pol Pot were > > > both atheists. > > > Yes, and the Crusader Popes, and the Bush family, and Hitler, and > > several genocidal factions of the Serbo-Croat wars, and the warring > > factions in Northern Ireland were Christians, mostly (Hitler excepted) > > killing in by they considered to be their version of God's will. We can > > both find examples until the cows come home, and each successive example > > � advances the argument not one jot. > > > I said it before, and it bears repeating - neither Christian nor atheist > > can claim the moral high ground when it comes to genocide or mass murder > > or war-making. > > > > But politicians who killed large numbers of people > > > cannot compare with the numbers of people killed by abortion, which > > > was done by governments controlled by atheistic political factions. > > > You're confusing secular with atheist. You really don't understand what > > "atheist" means, do you? Or rather, you choose not to make the > > distinction between atheist, agnostic, satanist, secular, and so on. > > > It's either ignorance, wilful stupidity, or trolling, and the jury's out. > > > TLA > > Atheists are people who believe they are not accountable for their > actions. No. Atheists are the ones taking personal responsibility without relying on fantasy characters instead. > They believe that the only thing that matters is if they get > away with some particular course of action. They have themselves > convinced that they have succeeded in killing millions of unborn > children per year with no consequences. You really aren't interested in reality are you? Al
From: The Loan Arranger on 18 Jul 2008 06:03 rbwinn wrote: > Atheists are people who believe they are not accountable for their > actions. Atheists are people who are particularly accountable for their actions. Because they haven't a god's will to hide behind, they have no choice but to accept responsibility. > They believe that the only thing that matters is if they get > away with some particular course of action. This rates along with "all blacks are criminal" and "all men are rapists" in the list of irrational, blind, sweeping and completely unjustified prejudicial blanket assertions. > They have themselves > convinced that they have succeeded in killing millions of unborn > children per year with no consequences. You've been dangling that bait for a long time - usually when you realise you've totally lost an argument, and want to deflect it. OK, I'll bite at last. In both the UK and USA, it's required that any woman who has requested (note that word, requested) an abortion be counselled and made aware of the physical, emotional and psychological consequences. Proceeding with the abortion occurs only when the physicians are convinced that the woman is capable of informed consent, has been fully informed, and has consented, and that there are compelling medical grounds to perform the procedure (which may include the psychological wellbeing of the woman). Given that a fair proportion of the women concerned (in the USA or the UK) are Christian, yours is quite an amusing statement. Or maybe you believe that physicians performing abortions are all, every single one of them, atheist? That would be even more amusing. What I'm about to say comes from the heart. I'm not saying it to needle you. You know, Christianity doesn't suit you, right now. You're too naive, too gullible, too easily swayed. You parrot the preachings of your pastor, without really thinking about them, and when they're challenged with fact and logic, you deflect, or come out with some blanket prejudice, to try to hide from yourself the fact that someone else might have a point. I've seen that fervour in others. It's never once been a lifelong thing. They become more and more emphatic in their statements, but it's to suppress growing discomfort. By preaching more and harder, they hoped to persuade _themselves_ out of their misgivings. In every case, every single case, they failed, and had to step back from their religion and reassess. Some returned to Christianity after their "time in the desert", with a more worldly view, some decided that it really wasn't for them after all. It's a painful process, more so because of the holes they dug for themselves with every self-delivered sermon, but every one of them was better for it, a more whole human being. Perhaps you should take ten years out, take the chance to mature and really understand both yourself and the whole spread of world religions, and maybe come back to Christianity when you can view it with a more impartial eye. After all you've posted here, there's no possible way that you can say, "TLA, you're right." You have left yourself little choice but to rebut, or to ignore, these comments, and I will expect nothing less. You've backed yourself into that corner. Think about it, though. More-or-less every saint in Christian history, and even Jesus himself, has had at some point to stop and reexamine their faith, maybe even abandon it for a while in order to understand it better, so you're in good company. Someone I deeply respect once said, "The journey of a thousand miles starts with a single step." I promise you, that step is not into an abyss. TLA
From: rbwinn on 18 Jul 2008 08:31 On Jul 17, 6:47 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 17, 5:42 am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 17, 4:11 am, The Loan Arranger <no...(a)nowhere.invalid> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 15, 6:39�am, The Loan Arranger <no...(a)nowhere.invalid> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 14, 10:38 pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> So are you admitting that you have sins? �This would be a first for an > >>>>>>>>> atheist. �All other atheists tell me that they do not have sins > >>>>>>>>> because whatever they do is not sin. > >>>>>>>> I have what YOU call sins. They aren't, because the concept is > >>>>>>>> meaningless. In absolute terms. > >>>>>>> Right. �Atheist Josef Stalin said the same thing when he killed 12 > >>>>>>> million people. > >>>>>> As opposed to Adolf Hitler ("I am now as before a Catholic and will > >>>>>> always remain so." - quoted in John Towland's biog). > >>>>>> Not to mention several Popes, who were happy to ordain the > >>>>>> indiscriminate massacres of Moslems in the name of the Cross. > >>>>>> Not to mention the Christian fundamentalist GWB (and his father), who > >>>>>> seems happy to go to war against the people of any Moslem country that > >>>>>> has the audacity not to kow-tow to his government's wishes. > >>>>>> There is no point in claiming that atheism breeds immorality, or that > >>>>>> Christianity is the cure, because there are so many counter-examples in > >>>>>> both cases that the only conclusion any sensible person can draw is that > >>>>>> some people are good, some people are bad, and anyone can be drawn to or > >>>>>> away from religion. > >>>>>> TLA > >>>>> So was this John Towland an atheist? > >>>> I have no idea, and it's not relevant anyway. He just wrote a biog of > >>>> Hitler. > >>>>> Anyway, Hitler was a politician saying what would make him popular > >>>>> with the German people.  His actions in his life show that he did not > >>>>> believe he would be punished for sins, much like atheists of today. > >>>> ...and any psychopath with temporal lobe epilepsy or schizophrenia who > >>>> believes that massacring groups or whole races is OK, because they've > >>>> God on their side. However, the point that you're trying to dodge, and > >>>> failing, is that as much evil is done in the name of religion, in this > >>>> case Christian religion, as is done by those with none - probably more. > >>>> If you don't find that an uncomfortable truth, you need to recalibrate > >>>> your humanity. > >>>> TLA- Hide quoted text - > >>> Well, I don't really see much evidence of it.  Stalin and Pol Pot were > >>> both atheists.  > >> They were also both men.  So what? > > >>> But politicians who killed large numbers of people > >>> cannot compare with the numbers of people killed by abortion, which > >>> was done by governments controlled by atheistic political factions. > >> Number of abortions in United States since George W. Bush's > >> inauguration: Approximately 9 million > >> George W. Bush's religious affiliation: Christian > > >> What were you saying again? > > >> -- > > > George W. Bush is completely irrelevant, as the next President of the > > United States will be.  All major decisions are made by the atheistic > > Supreme Court, which at the present time holds the position of > > Judicial dictatorship in the United States. > > Religious affiliations of Supreme Court Justices: > Roberts: Roman Catholic > Stevens: Protestant > Scalia: Roman Catholic > Kennedy: Roman Catholic > Souter: Episcopalian > Thomas: Roman Catholic > Breyer: Jewish > Alito: Roman Catholic > Ginsburg: Jewish > > The Supreme Court follows the Constitution of the United States of > America, the federal law of the land. > > What were you saying again? > > -- During my lifetime the Supreme Court has not made even one decision that did not promote atheism. It does not matter if they all claim to be religious. Actions speak louder than words. Robert B. Winn
From: DanielSan on 18 Jul 2008 08:32 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 17, 6:47 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 17, 5:42 am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 17, 4:11 am, The Loan Arranger <no...(a)nowhere.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 15, 6:39�am, The Loan Arranger <no...(a)nowhere.invalid> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jul 14, 10:38 pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> So are you admitting that you have sins? �This would be a first for an >>>>>>>>>>> atheist. �All other atheists tell me that they do not have sins >>>>>>>>>>> because whatever they do is not sin. >>>>>>>>>> I have what YOU call sins. They aren't, because the concept is >>>>>>>>>> meaningless. In absolute terms. >>>>>>>>> Right. �Atheist Josef Stalin said the same thing when he killed 12 >>>>>>>>> million people. >>>>>>>> As opposed to Adolf Hitler ("I am now as before a Catholic and will >>>>>>>> always remain so." - quoted in John Towland's biog). >>>>>>>> Not to mention several Popes, who were happy to ordain the >>>>>>>> indiscriminate massacres of Moslems in the name of the Cross. >>>>>>>> Not to mention the Christian fundamentalist GWB (and his father), who >>>>>>>> seems happy to go to war against the people of any Moslem country that >>>>>>>> has the audacity not to kow-tow to his government's wishes. >>>>>>>> There is no point in claiming that atheism breeds immorality, or that >>>>>>>> Christianity is the cure, because there are so many counter-examples in >>>>>>>> both cases that the only conclusion any sensible person can draw is that >>>>>>>> some people are good, some people are bad, and anyone can be drawn to or >>>>>>>> away from religion. >>>>>>>> TLA >>>>>>> So was this John Towland an atheist? >>>>>> I have no idea, and it's not relevant anyway. He just wrote a biog of >>>>>> Hitler. >>>>>>> Anyway, Hitler was a politician saying what would make him popular >>>>>>> with the German people. His actions in his life show that he did not >>>>>>> believe he would be punished for sins, much like atheists of today. >>>>>> ...and any psychopath with temporal lobe epilepsy or schizophrenia who >>>>>> believes that massacring groups or whole races is OK, because they've >>>>>> God on their side. However, the point that you're trying to dodge, and >>>>>> failing, is that as much evil is done in the name of religion, in this >>>>>> case Christian religion, as is done by those with none - probably more. >>>>>> If you don't find that an uncomfortable truth, you need to recalibrate >>>>>> your humanity. >>>>>> TLA- Hide quoted text - >>>>> Well, I don't really see much evidence of it. Stalin and Pol Pot were >>>>> both atheists. >>>> They were also both men. So what? >>>>> But politicians who killed large numbers of people >>>>> cannot compare with the numbers of people killed by abortion, which >>>>> was done by governments controlled by atheistic political factions. >>>> Number of abortions in United States since George W. Bush's >>>> inauguration: Approximately 9 million >>>> George W. Bush's religious affiliation: Christian >>>> What were you saying again? >>>> -- >>> George W. Bush is completely irrelevant, as the next President of the >>> United States will be. All major decisions are made by the atheistic >>> Supreme Court, which at the present time holds the position of >>> Judicial dictatorship in the United States. >> Religious affiliations of Supreme Court Justices: >> Roberts: Roman Catholic >> Stevens: Protestant >> Scalia: Roman Catholic >> Kennedy: Roman Catholic >> Souter: Episcopalian >> Thomas: Roman Catholic >> Breyer: Jewish >> Alito: Roman Catholic >> Ginsburg: Jewish >> >> The Supreme Court follows the Constitution of the United States of >> America, the federal law of the land. >> >> What were you saying again? >> >> -- > During my lifetime the Supreme Court has not made even one decision > that did not promote atheism. It does not matter if they all claim to > be religious. Actions speak louder than words. Perhaps you can name me one decision that "promoted atheism". -- ****************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *----------------------------------------------------* * "I distrust those people who know so well what God * * wants them to do because I notice it always * * coincides with their own desires." * * --Susan B. Anthony * ******************************************************
From: rbwinn on 18 Jul 2008 08:41
On Jul 17, 7:10 pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: > On Jul 16, 10:20 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 15, 6:39�am, The Loan Arranger <no...(a)nowhere.invalid> wrote: > > > > rbwinn wrote: > > > > On Jul 14, 10:38 pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > > > >>> So are you admitting that you have sins? �This would be a first for an > > > >>> atheist. �All other atheists tell me that they do not have sins > > > >>> because whatever they do is not sin. > > > >> I have what YOU call sins. They aren't, because the concept is > > > >> meaningless. In absolute terms. > > > > > Right. �Atheist Josef Stalin said the same thing when he killed 12 > > > > million people. > > > > As opposed to Adolf Hitler ("I am now as before a Catholic and will > > > always remain so." - quoted in John Towland's biog). > > > > Not to mention several Popes, who were happy to ordain the > > > indiscriminate massacres of Moslems in the name of the Cross. > > > > Not to mention the Christian fundamentalist GWB (and his father), who > > > seems happy to go to war against the people of any Moslem country that > > > has the audacity not to kow-tow to his government's wishes. > > > > There is no point in claiming that atheism breeds immorality, or that > > > Christianity is the cure, because there are so many counter-examples in > > > both cases that the only conclusion any sensible person can draw is that > > > some people are good, some people are bad, and anyone can be drawn to or > > > away from religion. > > > > TLA > > > So was this John Towland an atheist? > > Anyway, Hitler was a politician saying what would make him popular > > with the German people.  His actions in his life show that he did not > > believe he would be punished for sins, much like atheists of today. > > Robert B. Winn > > You must be a hateful person, simply because of your lousy life. > Sin is always in your mind that had been brainwashed into your brain > cells...see the evil of your religion? > Human being, regardless of who they are, are born not with any > "sin"....sin is what is being planted into your head. > The term sin is a meaningless word which is beyond your ability to > comprehend. > The children are all born beautiful and innocent. They learn, they > grow and they contribute to this world...this is fundamental for > human. > The loons are different....they are born with sin and always need to > ask for forgiveness, then commit sin again, then ask...a cycle and > finally depart to serve their god, never contribute to this world. Yet > they are as human as all others.\ > > Think deeply, if your brain cells can still function.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, you left out the children who are killed before they are born by abortion. Robert B. Winn |