Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: rbwinn on 18 Jul 2008 08:44 On Jul 17, 8:00 pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: > On Jul 17, 11:30 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jul 16, 1:38�pm, Stan-O <bndsna...(a)aol.com> wrote: > > > > On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:42:35 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > > > wrote: > > > > >> > Well, the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel was very remarkable. �But > > > >> > atheists do not like seeing remards about it. �Why is that? > > > > >> I have nothing against the tunnel. No, what I dislike is your butchery > > > >> of logic.- Hide quoted text - > > > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > > >Well, choose for yourself what you like or dislike. �It means nothing > > > >to me. �If you or any other atheist decides to discuss the tunnel, > > > >come back and do it some time without trying to change the subject to > > > >Harry Potter. > > > > Making a comparison between two pieces of literature is hardly > > > changing the subject. > > > So you think the Bible is like a Harry Potter book.  What is the point > > of discussing it further with you then? > > Robert B. Winn > > The Harry Potter book is another bible story book...and you fail to > recognize this fact simply because of your mental problem. > Now, I have pointed this out and you should be clear about it. > > I have actually thought that you should check out this fact with your > doctor, but since you distrust those psychiatrist, may be you should > then seek second opinion from scientist/atheists. However, since your > brain frequency is not in line with scientist/atheists, may be the > final choice would be the theist. > One advise, if one theist were to play a trick on you by confirming > Harry Potter the same as Bible, your state of mind may get such a > shock that the hospital would have to lock you up forever.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I think that what you just wrote will one day be canonized as atheistic scripture. Robert B. Winn
From: DanielSan on 18 Jul 2008 08:49 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 17, 7:10 pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: >> On Jul 16, 10:20 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jul 15, 6:39�am, The Loan Arranger <no...(a)nowhere.invalid> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 14, 10:38 pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: >>>>>>> So are you admitting that you have sins? �This would be a first for an >>>>>>> atheist. �All other atheists tell me that they do not have sins >>>>>>> because whatever they do is not sin. >>>>>> I have what YOU call sins. They aren't, because the concept is >>>>>> meaningless. In absolute terms. >>>>> Right. �Atheist Josef Stalin said the same thing when he killed 12 >>>>> million people. >>>> As opposed to Adolf Hitler ("I am now as before a Catholic and will >>>> always remain so." - quoted in John Towland's biog). >>>> Not to mention several Popes, who were happy to ordain the >>>> indiscriminate massacres of Moslems in the name of the Cross. >>>> Not to mention the Christian fundamentalist GWB (and his father), who >>>> seems happy to go to war against the people of any Moslem country that >>>> has the audacity not to kow-tow to his government's wishes. >>>> There is no point in claiming that atheism breeds immorality, or that >>>> Christianity is the cure, because there are so many counter-examples in >>>> both cases that the only conclusion any sensible person can draw is that >>>> some people are good, some people are bad, and anyone can be drawn to or >>>> away from religion. >>>> TLA >>> So was this John Towland an atheist? >>> Anyway, Hitler was a politician saying what would make him popular >>> with the German people. His actions in his life show that he did not >>> believe he would be punished for sins, much like atheists of today. >>> Robert B. Winn >> You must be a hateful person, simply because of your lousy life. >> Sin is always in your mind that had been brainwashed into your brain >> cells...see the evil of your religion? >> Human being, regardless of who they are, are born not with any >> "sin"....sin is what is being planted into your head. >> The term sin is a meaningless word which is beyond your ability to >> comprehend. >> The children are all born beautiful and innocent. They learn, they >> grow and they contribute to this world...this is fundamental for >> human. >> The loons are different....they are born with sin and always need to >> ask for forgiveness, then commit sin again, then ask...a cycle and >> finally depart to serve their god, never contribute to this world. Yet >> they are as human as all others.\ >> >> Think deeply, if your brain cells can still function.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, you left out the children who are killed before they are born by > abortion. There are no children before birth. -- ****************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *----------------------------------------------------* * "I distrust those people who know so well what God * * wants them to do because I notice it always * * coincides with their own desires." * * --Susan B. Anthony * ******************************************************
From: DanielSan on 18 Jul 2008 08:49 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 17, 8:00 pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: >> On Jul 17, 11:30 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jul 16, 1:38�pm, Stan-O <bndsna...(a)aol.com> wrote: >>>> On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 12:42:35 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>>>> Well, the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel was very remarkable. �But >>>>>>> atheists do not like seeing remards about it. �Why is that? >>>>>> I have nothing against the tunnel. No, what I dislike is your butchery >>>>>> of logic.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> Well, choose for yourself what you like or dislike. �It means nothing >>>>> to me. �If you or any other atheist decides to discuss the tunnel, >>>>> come back and do it some time without trying to change the subject to >>>>> Harry Potter. >>>> Making a comparison between two pieces of literature is hardly >>>> changing the subject. >>> So you think the Bible is like a Harry Potter book. What is the point >>> of discussing it further with you then? >>> Robert B. Winn >> The Harry Potter book is another bible story book...and you fail to >> recognize this fact simply because of your mental problem. >> Now, I have pointed this out and you should be clear about it. >> >> I have actually thought that you should check out this fact with your >> doctor, but since you distrust those psychiatrist, may be you should >> then seek second opinion from scientist/atheists. However, since your >> brain frequency is not in line with scientist/atheists, may be the >> final choice would be the theist. >> One advise, if one theist were to play a trick on you by confirming >> Harry Potter the same as Bible, your state of mind may get such a >> shock that the hospital would have to lock you up forever.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > I think that what you just wrote will one day be canonized as > atheistic scripture. There's no such thing as "atheistic scripture". -- ****************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *----------------------------------------------------* * "I distrust those people who know so well what God * * wants them to do because I notice it always * * coincides with their own desires." * * --Susan B. Anthony * ******************************************************
From: rbwinn on 18 Jul 2008 08:50 On Jul 18, 12:15 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 17, 12:53 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 16, 12:48 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 15, 5:24 am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 14, 8:27 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 14, 5:12�pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>>>>>news:44f19f98-4d96-4419-a87a-d6bdbd73f31b(a)c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Their idea is that if Hezekiah's tunnel exists, then Harry Potter has > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to be true because the train station in London is mentioned in Harry > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Potter. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly. Since we know therefore that harry potter isn't true, the fact > >>>>>>>>>>>> of hezekiahs tunnel means the bible is obviously false. Since we have > >>>>>>>>>>>> true facts referred to in works of complete fiction. > >>>>>>>>>>>> By your reasoning at least. > >>>>>>>>>>> Well, you have it exactly as atheists have been telling me it is. > >>>>>>>>>>> Don't ask me what it is supposed to mean. > >>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>> Here is an example of rbwinn's logic. > >>>>>>>>>> Sheep are mentioned in the bible > >>>>>>>>>> Sheep exist today > >>>>>>>>>> The bible is accurate and there is a God > >>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>> Steve O > >>>>>>>>> Well, no, Steve O.  Here is an example.  Atheists were claiming that > >>>>>>>>> nothing existed on earth today that could prove anything in the > >>>>>>>>> Bible.  So I said, What about Hezekiah's tunnel?  These atheists had > >>>>>>>>> never heard of Hezekiah's tunnel.  So after they looked it up, they > >>>>>>>>> said, The fact that a tunnel exists no more proves the Bible to be > >>>>>>>>> true than Harry Potter leaving from the train station in London to go > >>>>>>>>> to wizard's school. > >>>>>>>> The original assertion remains in force.  Hezekiah's Tunnel does not > >>>>>>>> prove anything. > >>>>>>>>>   I really believe that it certainly does prove certain verses in the > >>>>>>>>> Old Testament to be true which describe the digging of Hezekiah's > >>>>>>>>> tunnel.  Otherwise, atheists need to explain why there is a tunnel > >>>>>>>>> exactly where the Bible in three books of the Old Testament says a > >>>>>>>>> tunnel was dug as a conduit for water. > >>>>>>>> For the same reason that King's Cross Station exists. > >>>>>>>> Wow, you REALLY aren't getting the analogy, are you? > >>>>>>> There is nothing in the Book of 2 Chronicles about the construction of > >>>>>>> King's Cross Station. > >>>>>> Wow, you REALLY aren't getting the analogy, are you? > >>>>>> -- > >>>>> Well, if you can provide a description of the construction of Kings > >>>>> Cross station from the time it was built, maybe we could compare it to > >>>>> the Biblical account of the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel. > >>>> Totally irrelevant to the point. Just to remind you: people make stuff > >>>> up about real places then write it down. Like in Harry Potter, like in > >>>> the Bible. Why believe it just because it includes a real place?- Hide > >>> I don't believe it because it includes a real place.  I believe it > >>> because it is true. > >> Why have you been unable to demonstrate it's truth to us? We've been > >> asking for confirming evidence, where is it?- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Well, for instance, I used the example of Hezekiah's tunnel which > > proves the veracity of certain Old Testament verses which describe the > > construction of the tunnel.  No, say atheists, we do not accept that > > as evidence of anything.  This shows that atheists will say the same > > thing with regard to any evidence.  If they will not accept something > > that can be seen and even walked through, then it shows that their > > minds are closed, their opinions are already dictated to them, and any > > evidence shown to them will receive the same reaction. > > Well, it may well be the tunnel mentioned in the OT. Real people and > places are written about in the Bible, alongside fantastical and > fanciful supernatural claims. As an atheist, I'm entirely comfortable > with that. > > I do believe SOME of the Bible.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, believing some of the Bible does not constitute faith in Jesus Christ, which is the first principle of salvation. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 18 Jul 2008 08:54
On Jul 18, 12:18 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 17, 12:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 15, 11:57 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 14, 11:23 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 14, 5:12�pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >>>>>>>>news:44f19f98-4d96-4419-a87a-d6bdbd73f31b(a)c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com... > >>>>>>>>>>> Their idea is that if Hezekiah's tunnel exists, then Harry Potter has > >>>>>>>>>>> to be true because the train station in London is mentioned in Harry > >>>>>>>>>>> Potter. > >>>>>>>>>> Exactly. Since we know therefore that harry potter isn't true, the fact > >>>>>>>>>> of hezekiahs tunnel means the bible is obviously false. Since we have > >>>>>>>>>> true facts referred to in works of complete fiction. > >>>>>>>>>> By your reasoning at least. > >>>>>>>>> Well, you have it exactly as atheists have been telling me it is. > >>>>>>>>> Don't ask me what it is supposed to mean. > >>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>> Here is an example of rbwinn's logic. > >>>>>>>> Sheep are mentioned in the bible > >>>>>>>> Sheep exist today > >>>>>>>> The bible is accurate and there is a God > >>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>> Steve O > >>>>>>> Well, no, Steve O.  Here is an example.  Atheists were claiming that > >>>>>>> nothing existed on earth today that could prove anything in the > >>>>>>> Bible. > >>>>>> And yet you've been unable to produce these mythical posts. Well, you do > >>>>>> seem to like myths... > >>>>>>>  So I said, What about Hezekiah's tunnel?  These atheists had > >>>>>>> never heard of Hezekiah's tunnel.  So after they looked it up, they > >>>>>>> said, The fact that a tunnel exists no more proves the Bible to be > >>>>>>> true than Harry Potter leaving from the train station in London to go > >>>>>>> to wizard's school. > >>>>>> In a slightly mangled sense, yes that was me. I'd never heard of > >>>>>> Hezekiah's tunnel. Now I have. I still can't see how it supports the > >>>>>> existence of any gods. Assuming it's the same tunnel (which hasn't been > >>>>>> established AFAIK), so what? People sometimes write things about stuff. > >>>>>> Does that automatically render it true? > >>>>>>>   I really believe that it certainly does prove certain verses in the > >>>>>>> Old Testament to be true which describe the digging of Hezekiah's > >>>>>>> tunnel.  Otherwise, atheists need to explain why there is a tunnel > >>>>>>> exactly where the Bible in three books of the Old Testament says a > >>>>>>> tunnel was dug as a conduit for water. > >>>>>> I might point out that the physical evidence doesn't accord well with > >>>>>> the account of the tunnel's construction. Even if you're right, it's > >>>>>> simply shows that a tunnel was built, not that gods exist. > >>>>>> If you want to infer more than is logical from this, go for it! But to > >>>>>> maintain a degree of intellectual honesty, I cannot follow.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>> Well, obviously, you have not studied the history of that time. > >>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>> I haven't much, and yet I still know that. Additionally, the Bible > >>>> contains some history, but doesn't qualify as a whole. It's far too > >>>> unreliable.- Hide quoted text - > >>> Well, I understan why atheists would want to believe Sennacherib's > >>> account of the Assyrian invasion of Judea over the Biblical account, > >>> but, obviously, Sennacherib was lying.  Chaldean historians agree with > >>> the Biblical account.  Sennacherib lost his entire army at Jerusalem. > >> Obviously. Ummmm..... why again? Why would either of them have to be the > >> "gospel truth"?- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Sennacherib had to lie about the loss of his army because he had been > > left in a precarious position, as events soon proved when he was > > murdered by two of his own sons. > > The Bible had to lie to promote the idea of an almighty god. That's my > point, both sides have motive for lying. Why would you believe either > one of the accounts? > > What really took place maybe very different from either one.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, the important factor was what happened to the Assyrian army. The Jews said an angel of God went through the camp of the Assyrians and killed 186,000 of them. They certainly seem to have ended up dead some way. Chaldean historians said they died of plague. Robert B. Winn |