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From: Robert Bannister on 25 Feb 2010 20:36 tony cooper wrote: > On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 09:14:04 +0800, Robert Bannister > <robban1(a)bigpond.com> wrote: > >> Ant�nio Marques wrote: >> >>> It's not what you think. Either the Church's message is universal and >>> Christ did found one Church, or it isn't. >> Now there's a new one: the first I've heard that Jesus founded or even >> wanted a church. > > I thought he delegated the job to Peter. > > I don't think so. I believe he did ask Peter and the others to keep on spreading the word, but I have seen no mention of churches, priests, buildings, vestments or choir boys in the New Testament. -- Rob Bannister
From: Robert Bannister on 25 Feb 2010 20:38 Ant�nio Marques wrote: > On Feb 24, 1:14 am, Robert Bannister <robb...(a)bigpond.com> wrote: >> Ant nio Marques wrote: >>> It's not what you think. Either the Church's message is universal and >>> Christ did found one Church, or it isn't. >> Now there's a new one: the first I've heard that Jesus founded or even >> wanted a church. > > 'Church' has many meanings. I don't know which one(s) you're thinking > of. I can't think of one mentioned by Jesus, but I suppose priests are allowed to invent what He might have thought. -- Rob Bannister
From: Robert Bannister on 25 Feb 2010 20:44 Peter T. Daniels wrote: > On Feb 23, 8:12 pm, Robert Bannister <robb...(a)bigpond.com> wrote: >> Adam Funk wrote: >>> On 2010-02-23, Ant�nio Marques wrote: >>>> "Roman Catholic" ISN'T AN OFFICIAL SELF-DESIGNATION. ANYWHERE. >>> Are you going to write to all the churches in the UK with "St ____'s >>> Roman Catholic Church" or "St ____'s R. C. Church" on their signs, >>> newsletters, websites, etc., to tell them that they are wrong? (I >>> think this is common in much of the USA too.) >> I won't try to claim such signs don't exist, but I don't remember ever >> seeing one. The only way I can tell a church is RC is by the >> architecture and usually by the name (saint I've never heard of or >> long-winded way of saying Mary). > > Do you only visit villages so small that they have only one church, or > so homogeneous that they only have a sprinkling of Protestant churches? I don't see what you are getting at. The only churches I notice that actually stipulate their denomination on their own signs are the ones that are neither Anglican nor Catholic. The latter appear to assume that anyone interested will know, and usually, they are right. As I said above, I won't try to claim that no "Roman Catholic" or "Church of England" signs exist - just that I haven't noticed them in the same way I notice Lutheran or whatever. -- Rob Bannister
From: Evan Kirshenbaum on 25 Feb 2010 22:22 Robert Bannister <robban1(a)bigpond.com> writes: > Ant�nio Marques wrote: > >> It's not what you think. Either the Church's message is universal >> and Christ did found one Church, or it isn't. > > Now there's a new one: the first I've heard that Jesus founded or even > wanted a church. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [Matt. 16:18, KJV] -- Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------ HP Laboratories |I need to get a new colander. My 1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |old one has holes in it. Palo Alto, CA 94304 kirshenbaum(a)hpl.hp.com (650)857-7572 http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
From: PaulJK on 25 Feb 2010 02:52
Peter T. Daniels wrote: > On Feb 24, 4:28 am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> António Marques wrote: >>> Adam Funk wrote (23-02-2010 11:39): >>>> On 2010-02-23, Andrew Usher wrote: >>>>>>> The Catholic Church has stated, I believe more than once (it's linked >>>>>>> to somewhere in this thread) that fixing Easter to a particular week >>>>>>> would be acceptable. >> >>>> ("Catholic" is a commonly used but imprecise abbreviation of "Roman >>>> Catholic".) >> >>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote: >>>>>> "The Catholic Church" (which refers to no specific organization) >>>>>> hasn't spoken for all of Christendom for nearly half a millennium. >> >>>>> 'The Catholic Church' or simply 'The Church' refers to exactly one >>>>> organisation. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise. Also, it's been >>>>> longer than half a millennium if one includes the East. >> >>>> The "Roman Catholic Church", the "Old Catholic Church", and the >>>> "Polish National Catholic Church" are independent of each other. >> >>>> The "Eastern Catholic Churches" are under papal authority but I don't >>>> think they describe themselves as "Roman Catholic". >> >>> Gad, not again! You're trolling, aren't you? >> >>> "Roman Catholic" ISN'T AN OFFICIAL SELF-DESIGNATION. ANYWHERE. >> >> I was just skimming through, but these screaming capitals >> stopped me dead in my tracks. I reached into my legal files and >> pulled out my "Geburts- und Taufschein / Rodný a křestní list", >> (Birth and Christening certificate). >> >> Under "Religion / Náboženství" is pre-printed "römisch-katholische / >> římsko-katolické". >> >> It's not in English but it is clearly stated in two different languages. >> What could be a clearer example of self-designation. > > That sounds like it was issued by the Czechoslovak government, Oh common :-), how could any Czechoslovak government ever issue a bilingual birth certificates in German and Czech? As the certificate says on the top: the government at that time was "Protectorat Böhmen und Mähren / Protektorát Čechy a Morava". > which > assumed that there were no Protestants -- let alone any Jews -- born > within its borders? (A church wouldn't be in a position to issue a > birth certificate, would it?) I.e., not a _self_-designation. That is exactly what it is, a birth certificate issued by RC church, as it says "Gegeben vom Dekanal-Pfarr-Amte in xxxx am xxxx" (Pfarr crossed out) You will have to suspend your disbelieve. The Catholic birth/christening certificates were indeed issued by the church during the baptism. I only guess the civil government registry was updated behind the scene. There is an official stamp affixed with a registration number. That, I guess, confirms the registration in the government files. I know the various protestant churches who are also quite large had their own certificates. I don't know if some people belonging to various other religions had to go to a civil office to register the births of their children. I believe the births were registered this way in all countries of the old Austrian empire even after she was no more. Perhaps it was then done the same way in Germany. BTW, there was a certain stigma associated with having a government birth certificate. A the government certificates did not state any such detail, it was often taken to mean that the child or any of the parents were born out of wedlock. The church certificates record in great details marital statuses of parents and grandparents, their names, religions, birthdays, addresses, jobs and professions as well as the names, addresses and professions of godfathers, godmathers, and doctors present at the delivery. Certificates like that are real gold mines for people researching the genetical family trees. > -- Does that mean Rimsky-Korsakov('s family) was Catholic? Could that be originally an old Greek Orthodox family from Lebanon? :-) pjk |