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From: Mensanator on 26 Feb 2010 09:44 On Feb 26, 2:00 am, "PaulJK" <paul.kr...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > Mensanator wrote: > > On Feb 25, 5:00 pm, Peter Moylan <gro.nalyomp(a)retep> wrote: > >> Adam Funk wrote: > >>> On 2010-02-24, Bob Myers wrote: > > >>>> Andrew Usher wrote: > > >>>>> Well, I'm astounded. Indexing from 0 is so obviously the Right Way > >>>>> that I can't imagine why anyone would do it the other way. > >>>> Oh, absolutely. Why, I see people in the stores every day, > >>>> counting out their money or the number of items they're > >>>> going to purchase, and saying to themselves "Zero, one, two..." > > >>> The initialized state of my shopping basket contains 0 items. Each > >>> item I put in increments it. If I initialized at 1, my shopping would > >>> crash with a 1-off error on unpacking. > > >> If your shopping basket had been designed by a C programmer, its initial > >> state would be the state just before the zeroth item was inserted. That > >> suggests that initially the basket contains -1 items. > > > This is still wrong. As a database programmer, the initial > > state of my shopping basket is Null. Only after I make a > > decision about whether to buy Mallomars does the state > > (with respect to Mallomars) change to 0 or 1. The initial > > state is never -1. > > > Don't be confused by the practical consideration of not > > being able to distinguish between Null and 0. In databases, > > there is no ambiguity at all, since anything added to a > > Null results in Null, anything compared to a Null is false. > > Null compared to a Null is false too? Yep, there's a special function for this, isnull(). To compare A and B you must first test if either is null (assuming you actually need to know that rather than blindly accept the False that a A<B, A=B or A>B test will return). Makes database programming fun. > > > > > The same does NOT hold for values of 0. > > > 99 bottles of beer on the wall, > > 99 bottles of beer! > > If Null bottles should happen to fall, > > Null bottles of beer on the wall! > > >> -- > >> Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia.http://www.pmoylan.org > >> For an e-mail address, see my web page.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
From: Brian M. Scott on 26 Feb 2010 10:23 On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:33:25 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim(a)verizon.net> wrote in <news:1696d92f-1836-48b7-a33c-1dd0a12586fb(a)15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> in sci.math,sci.lang,alt.usage.english: > On Feb 25, 1:29�pm, Adam Funk <a24...(a)ducksburg.com> wrote: >> On 2010-02-24, sjdevn...(a)yahoo.com wrote: [...] >>> It's not uncommon to make tables of historic astronomical events. >>> They might be used purely for statistical analysis, or they may be >>> helpful for trying to determine "what's the comet-shaped thing carved >>> in the sky on this obelisk" or whatever. >> "archaeoastronomy" Historical astronomy. > No, that's speculation about the alignments of Stonehenge > or the Nasca figures or whatever. At least one book on the subject defines it as the study of how people in the past 'have understood the phenomena in the sky, how they used phenomena in the sky and what role the sky played in their cultures'. To some extent it must draw on historical astronomy. > Which is different from the sort of _recorded_ > observations made from at least the early first > millennium BCE in Mesopotamia Those, however, are among the data considered by archaeoastronomers studying the relevant cultures. > (and from some point in China) down to the time of Tycho > Brahe, on the basis of nothing but whose naked-eye > observations, Kepler worked out the theory of elliptical > planetary orbits. Brian
From: Brian M. Scott on 26 Feb 2010 10:25 On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 20:47:16 +1300, PaulJK <paul.kriha(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in <news:hm7u3v$etu$1(a)news.eternal-september.org> in sci.math,sci.physics,sci.astro,sci.lang,alt.usage.english: > jmfbahciv wrote: >> Bob Myers wrote: >>> Andrew Usher wrote: >>>> Well, I'm astounded. Indexing from 0 is so obviously the Right Way >>>> that I can't imagine why anyone would do it the other way. >>> Oh, absolutely. Why, I see people in the stores every day, >>> counting out their money or the number of items they're >>> going to purchase, and saying to themselves "Zero, one, two..." >>> ;-) >> Especially when the clerk counts change. I'm sure Usher wouldn't >> object when he gets a dollar short. > Would he perhaps see some value in minting zero cent coins? Probably: after all, its zero sense. Brian
From: James Silverton on 26 Feb 2010 10:38 Brian wrote on Fri, 26 Feb 2010 10:25:03 -0500: >> jmfbahciv wrote: >>> Bob Myers wrote: >>>> Andrew Usher wrote: >>>>> Well, I'm astounded. Indexing from 0 is so obviously the >>>>> Right Way that I can't imagine why anyone would do it the >>>>> other way. >>>> Oh, absolutely. Why, I see people in the stores every day, >>>> counting out their money or the number of items they're >>>> going to purchase, and saying to themselves "Zero, one, >>>> two..." >>>> ;-) >>> Especially when the clerk counts change. I'm sure Usher >>> wouldn't object when he gets a dollar short. >> Would he perhaps see some value in minting zero cent coins? > Probably: after all, its zero sense. I am trying to remember when Fortran introduced arrays with arbitrary indexing, that is, starting at numbers other than 1. I have not programmed in Fortran in years and I do remember the change but not when it happened. -- James Silverton Potomac, Maryland Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
From: Yusuf B Gursey on 26 Feb 2010 11:08
On Feb 26, 10:23 am, "Brian M. Scott" <b.sc...(a)csuohio.edu> wrote: > On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 06:33:25 -0800 (PST), "Peter T. Daniels" > <gramma...(a)verizon.net> wrote in > <news:1696d92f-1836-48b7-a33c-1dd0a12586fb(a)15g2000yqi.googlegroups.com> > in sci.math,sci.lang,alt.usage.english: > > > On Feb 25, 1:29 pm, Adam Funk <a24...(a)ducksburg.com> wrote: > >> On 2010-02-24, sjdevn...(a)yahoo.com wrote: > > [...] > > >>> It's not uncommon to make tables of historic astronomical events. > >>> They might be used purely for statistical analysis, or they may be > >>> helpful for trying to determine "what's the comet-shaped thing carved > >>> in the sky on this obelisk" or whatever. > >> "archaeoastronomy" > > Historical astronomy. both terms exist. "Historical Astronomy" is appropriate for the first point, "Archaeoastronomy", for the last point. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeoastronomy Archaeoastronomy From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The rising Sun illuminates the inner chamber of Newgrange, Ireland, only at the winter solsticeArchaeoastronomy (also spelled archeoastronomy) is the study of how past people "have understood the phenomena in the sky, how they used phenomena in the sky and what role the sky played in their cultures."[1] Clive Ruggles argues it is misleading to consider archaeoastronomy to be the study of ancient astronomy, as modern astronomy is a scientific discipline, while archaeoastronomy considers other cultures' symbolically rich cultural interpretations of phenomena in the sky.[2][3] It is often twinned with ethnoastronomy, the anthropological study of skywatching in contemporary societies. Archaeoastronomy is also closely associated with historical astronomy, the use of historical records of heavenly events to answer astronomical problems and the history of astronomy, which uses written records to evaluate past astronomical practice. OTOH: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_astronomy Historical astronomy From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Historical astronomy is the science of analysing historic astronomical data. The American Astronomical Society (AAS), established 1899, states that its Historical Astronomy Division "...shall exist for the purpose of advancing interest in topics relating to the historical nature of astronomy. By historical astronomy we include the history of astronomy; what has come to be known as archaeoastronomy; and the application of historical records to modern astrophysical problems." [1] Historical and ancient observations are used to track theoretically long term trends, such as eclipse patterns and the velocity of nebular clouds. [2] Conversely, utilizing known and well documented phenomenological activity, historical astronomers and apply computer models to verify the validity of ancient observations, as well as dating such observations and documents which would otherwise be unknown. > > > No, that's speculation about the alignments of Stonehenge > > or the Nasca figures or whatever. > > At least one book on the subject defines it as the study of > how people in the past 'have understood the phenomena in the > sky, how they used phenomena in the sky and what role the > sky played in their cultures'. To some extent it must draw > on historical astronomy. > > > Which is different from the sort of _recorded_ > > observations made from at least the early first > > millennium BCE in Mesopotamia > > Those, however, are among the data considered by > archaeoastronomers studying the relevant cultures. > > > (and from some point in China) down to the time of Tycho > > Brahe, on the basis of nothing but whose naked-eye > > observations, Kepler worked out the theory of elliptical > > planetary orbits. > > Brian |