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From: Loki Harfagr on 28 Nov 2009 05:57 Sat, 28 Nov 2009 01:59:21 +0000, (rm.*)+ looped: <snipped> OMG, a broadcast storm, someone shot that switch down!
From: Mike Jones on 28 Nov 2009 06:08 Responding to Aaron W. Hsu: > Mike Jones <Not(a)Arizona.Bay> writes: > >>Sidenote: An editor that requires a handy handbook? My point made. ;| > > How many commands do you have to know to actually use Vi to recover > something? > > Movement - hjkl$0 = 6 > Editing - i[esc] = 2 > General - :wq! = 4 > > That's twelve. That's not hard for anyone. Yes, it is. If we go back to my example situation where somebody with no experience of Vi finds themselves with Vi as their only editor, the chances they could either guess or trip over those key-strokes are phenomenally low. IOW, its obscure and incantational. Ok, so its got a help system. Great! Except you need to know how to get into and out of that help system, and that help system doesn exactly make it clear how to get into and out of the help system... In Nano, for comparison... Movement = cursor keys plus the usual PgUp, PgDn etc. Editing = Its already an editor and ready to edit. General = Ctrl+o for save-as, Ctrl+x for exit... Plus, all the help you need is right there on the bottom, with handy instructions on on how to access the help system. The only thing (arguable) simpler than Nano is leafpad. ;) > Most people have that many > memorized for any basic editor or even something like MS Word. Except for anything but Vi, those commands have some kind of accessible logic to them, and are similar to just about every other editor on the planet (Emacs excepted, as usual). My point isn't that Vi is unusable, its that to the newbie it is incantational beyond fit for purpose. Others have made the point that any half decent sysadmin should have leaned to use the number-1 across-the- range world-of-Linux editing tool /before/ then end up in a corner. I agree. This make perfect sense. However, just like some people just can't get their heads around reversing into a parking space, and others just can't get the hang of riding a bicycle, there are some who find Vi so obscure and incantational it appears as a puzzle game, not an editor. IOW, to some, its the Twightlight Zone in software form. So, not matter /how/ ingenious it might be (and I'm currently reading the online stuff again, and on paper it is indeed ingenious), if the human brain chokes on it, its not a lot of use. For those who find it their tool of choice, great! But!!! Unlike most "Works like an editor" editors, Vi not only presents a new challenge to some, it actually works /against/ everything that might have been learned prior to being faced with it. Nothing wrong with Vi. Nothing wrong with fans and advocates of Vi. Nothing wrong with learning to install your system in Russian either, except you'd need to learn Russian to use it. Can you see how this works, for some? -- *=( http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ *=( For all your UK news needs.
From: Mike Jones on 28 Nov 2009 06:24 Responding to Keith Keller: > On 2009-11-27, Mike Jones <Not(a)Arizona.Bay> wrote: >> Responding to Keith Keller: >> >>> On 2009-11-27, Mike Jones <Not(a)Arizona.Bay> wrote: > > [some extra snipping to make the context clearer] > >>>> You're drifting into >>>> a "My fav app" flame-war position. >>> >>> This is like the black hole calling the kettle black. >> >> Y'mean you're treating my problems with Vi as if I'm having a go at >> those who actually like it? > > No, sorry. The last sentence is to what I was referring--you seem to > think that just because nano is your preferred editor that everyone > should include it in their rescue/install media rootdisk. Ah. Not "seem to think", just "wondering why not". Several have already answered that query, so that bit is already done with. This is about kicking the thread into wherever its likely to end up, just for the fun of finding out where that might be. ;) >> Not the case. Thats just me reflecting /my/ experience. Don't take any >> of this personally. Its just about software, ok? > > Of course. So you know it's not personal when half the entire > population of usenet recommends you learn vi! Its not? Oh. And there's me thinking Vim-using aliens were trying to brainwash the population, or Vim was some kind of MK-Ultra project. ;) I think what I'm discovering here is that there is a phenomena something like a kind of selective application dislexia, and I (and a few others) have it regarding Vi. I recall a while back I tried to write an "XHTML-in-Notepad for Windows users" guide, and thought I'd done a pretty good job. Others who write HTML code thought so too. The target group just skipped it as it made their brains hurt. I'm getting a similar experience here on this topic, except I'm finding myself embarrassingly on the other side of the equasion here. I'm making the effort to learn the basics of Vi now, purely because what many have said here makes sense, and that is a basic capacity to use Vi is clearly (to me, as a result of this thread) on any rational list of "essential tools" for any Linux hacker. This doesn't mean I'm not having a similar experience to when I have when I go to the dentist for treatment though. 8( Once I've got my (as short and simple as possible) "How to face Vi and live!" list together, I'll doubtless be a much happier hacker. 8) -- *=( http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/ *=( For all your UK news needs.
From: Lew Pitcher on 28 Nov 2009 08:42 Keith Smeller <kkeller-usenet(a)wombat.san-francisco.ca.us> trolled: > > $ mc > -bash: mc: command not found $ brain -bash: brain: command not found > >> And I know more than 2 linux users. Much more. > > It's true that most linux users I know use emacs. I don't personally > know anyone who uses either mc or mcedit. > > --keith >
From: Lew Pitcher on 28 Nov 2009 08:44
Sylvain Robitaille <syl(a)alcor.concordia.ca> trolled: [deletia] Sylvain Robitaille is French Canadien. LewPitcher(a)LewPitcher.ca -- Official Website -->> http://lewpitcher.ca/ Something to look at: -->> http://www.emusclemag.com/ Lonely in Brampton? -->> http://gaypros.meetup.com/cities/ca/on/brampton/ Peel HIV/AIDS Network -->> http://www.phan.ca/home.html |