Aplgies for errors and confusion was Re: newcomer
in [UK Mac]
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From: T i m on 25 Jan 2010 18:42 On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:13:27 +1300, dempson(a)actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote: >> Ok, the Backspace deletes the chr to the left of the cursor and the >> Delete key deletes the chr to it's right (creating a gap into which >> the text to the right moves). It does so under XP on this Mac Mini >> and Apple keyboard, just as it would on a PC / XP. So, the keys are >> the same name and function as on a PC keyboard. Is that an agree? ;-) > >No, they have different names but the same function. Ok > >The offical Mac name for the key which deletes to the left is "Delete". >It is labelled "delete" on Apple's US keyboard, or with a leftward >pointing arrow on the UK keyboard. Ok > >The official Mac name for the key which deletes to the right is "Forward >Delete". It is labelled "Del" or "Delete" with a forward delete icon on >Apple keyboards. Check. > >If you are running Windows on a Mac, the first key is used as Backspace >and the second one is Del/Delete (which are in the same position on a >standard MS-DOS/Windows PC keyboard). > >They act the same in Mac OS X or Windows. OK. So ignoring the stuff printed on the keytops they act and are the same functions under Windows and OSX. > >1. You always have a "Delete" key on the Macintosh. It is the one with >the leftward pointing arrow above the Return key (on a UK keyboard). It >acts as Backspace in Windows and has the same "delete left" function in >Mac OS X. So a 'backspace' key if we were to tag these based on the most common usage on the planet? > >2. The key labelled "Del" or "Delete" with a forward delete symbol is >"Forward Delete". Or if as per above, 'Delete'. > >3. If you want to do Ctrl-Alt-Del in Windows on a Mac, and you have the >Forward Delete key, you use that key (and it is in the same position as >the corresponding key on a Windows keyboard). Check. > >4. If you want to do Ctrl-Alt-Del in Windows on a Mac, and you don't >have the Forward Delete key on the keyboard, you can generate it with >Fn-Delete (i.e. the Delete key which is in the same position as >Backspace on a Windows keyboard). Ok. And Fn is the Apple / Helicopter key? > >> <checks> Right trying it here on this >> Extended keyboard it seems that whilst the Backspace and Delete keys >> do different things to text, they both act as triggers to the need to >> Ctrl+Alt+<del OR Backspace>. ;-) > >That depends on the particular method you have for running Windows. I'm running it the Std / Bootcamp way. ;-) > Some >VM software may map the Ctrl-Option-Delete [Backspace] key combination >to Ctrl-Alt-Del by default. Ok but I (personally) wouldn't use any VM setup for a keystroke comparison, it being virtual n all. > >VMware Fusion doesn't do that. It requires use of the Forward Delete >key, or Fn-Delete (Fn-Backspace in Windows terms) to generate the >Forward Delete key. OK. > >I could probably add a custom mapping for Ctrl-Option-Delete [Backspace] >to generate Ctrl-Option-Forward Delete (Ctrl-Alt-Del). My head hurts. > >> >According to Mac OS X Help, the official names for the two keys in >> >question are "Delete" and "Forward Delete". >> >> Ok, and what I would call Backspace and Delete. > >Which are the correct names in Windows, but not in Mac OS X. Different names for the function but the same function and keytops? Like calling the button on the back of my Mini the 'Off' button. ;-) Cheers, T i m
From: David Empson on 25 Jan 2010 19:44 T i m <news(a)spaced.me.uk> wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:13:27 +1300, dempson(a)actrix.gen.nz (David > Empson) wrote: > > >1. You always have a "Delete" key on the Macintosh. It is the one with > >the leftward pointing arrow above the Return key (on a UK keyboard). It > >acts as Backspace in Windows and has the same "delete left" function in > >Mac OS X. > > So a 'backspace' key if we were to tag these based on the most common > usage on the planet? Except it isn't called Backspace anywhere in Apple's documentation (except for contexts such as Boot Camp), nor on the keyboard legend in any country. Where it is named, it is called "Delete". > >4. If you want to do Ctrl-Alt-Del in Windows on a Mac, and you don't > >have the Forward Delete key on the keyboard, you can generate it with > >Fn-Delete (i.e. the Delete key which is in the same position as > >Backspace on a Windows keyboard). > > Ok. And Fn is the Apple / Helicopter key? No, that is the Command key. Fn is labelled "fn" on every Apple keyboard I've seen. It exists on all Mac laptop keyboards at least back to the PowerBook G3 (Firewire), in the extreme bottom left corner (Ctrl is one to the right). The fn key is in the same place on the small aluminium keyboards. The fn key is also included on the extended aluminium keyboards, in the position that "Ins" would be on a Windows keyboard, just above the Forward Delete key ("Del"). On earlier Mac keyboards, the key above Forward Delete was "Help" (also labelled "ins" for when the computer was running Windows). > >> <checks> Right trying it here on this > >> Extended keyboard it seems that whilst the Backspace and Delete keys > >> do different things to text, they both act as triggers to the need to > >> Ctrl+Alt+<del OR Backspace>. ;-) > > > >That depends on the particular method you have for running Windows. > > I'm running it the Std / Bootcamp way. ;-) In that case, Apple's BootCamp drivers probably map Ctrl-Alt-Delete [Backspace] to Ctrl-Alt-Del. > >> >According to Mac OS X Help, the official names for the two keys in > >> >question are "Delete" and "Forward Delete". > >> > >> Ok, and what I would call Backspace and Delete. > > > >Which are the correct names in Windows, but not in Mac OS X. > > Different names for the function but the same function and keytops? There is no Apple-supplied keyboard with the word "Backspace" on the key that deletes to the left. It has either a leftward pointing arrow (International keyboards) or the word "delete" (US keyboards). I suppose there may be some countries where it has a different symbol, e.g. those with writing systems that don't go left-to-right, but let's not complicate this even further! -- David Empson dempson(a)actrix.gen.nz
From: T i m on 26 Jan 2010 05:04 On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:44:49 +1300, dempson(a)actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote: >T i m <news(a)spaced.me.uk> wrote: > >> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:13:27 +1300, dempson(a)actrix.gen.nz (David >> Empson) wrote: >> >> >1. You always have a "Delete" key on the Macintosh. It is the one with >> >the leftward pointing arrow above the Return key (on a UK keyboard). It >> >acts as Backspace in Windows and has the same "delete left" function in >> >Mac OS X. >> >> So a 'backspace' key if we were to tag these based on the most common >> usage on the planet? > >Except it isn't called Backspace anywhere in Apple's documentation >(except for contexts such as Boot Camp), nor on the keyboard legend in >any country. Maybe not, however I ran a Help Desk for 5 years (Data Comms - Lan and indirectly - Computers) and in any conversation where that key was mentioned it was referred to as 'Backspace'? > Where it is named, it is called "Delete". OK. > >> Ok. And Fn is the Apple / Helicopter key? > >No, that is the Command key. Doh! > >Fn is labelled "fn" on every Apple keyboard I've seen. It exists on all >Mac laptop keyboards at least back to the PowerBook G3 (Firewire), in >the extreme bottom left corner (Ctrl is one to the right). Right, where you describe fn is where I looked first to find it on this Apple, long, white / transparent, as_supplied_for_the_Mini keyboard and unless my glasses prescription needs to be a lot lot different there is no fn key on here (and FWIW there is nothing to the left of the Crrl key). ;-( >The fn key is in the same place on the small aluminium keyboards. It's near the place you describe on many of the keyboards I can see from here (mainly laptops), just not on this one. > >The fn key is also included on the extended aluminium keyboards, in the >position that "Ins" would be on a Windows keyboard, just above the >Forward Delete key ("Del"). Ok. > >On earlier Mac keyboards, the key above Forward Delete was "Help" (also >labelled "ins" for when the computer was running Windows). Ah, mine just says Help. > >> >> <checks> Right trying it here on this >> >> Extended keyboard it seems that whilst the Backspace and Delete keys >> >> do different things to text, they both act as triggers to the need to >> >> Ctrl+Alt+<del OR Backspace>. ;-) >> > >> >That depends on the particular method you have for running Windows. >> >> I'm running it the Std / Bootcamp way. ;-) > >In that case, Apple's BootCamp drivers probably map Ctrl-Alt-Delete >[Backspace] to Ctrl-Alt-Del. Ok. The place where I was trying to log into a Domain was iMacs Bootcamping into Vista. Two could do the backslash ok, one couldn't (3 identical machine setups ... or should have been). All responded ok to Ctrl+Alt+Backspace (<as per the typical key role / description). > >> >> >According to Mac OS X Help, the official names for the two keys in >> >> >question are "Delete" and "Forward Delete". >> >> >> >> Ok, and what I would call Backspace and Delete. >> > >> >Which are the correct names in Windows, but not in Mac OS X. >> >> Different names for the function but the same function and keytops? > >There is no Apple-supplied keyboard with the word "Backspace" on the key >that deletes to the left. It has either a leftward pointing arrow >(International keyboards) or the word "delete" (US keyboards). Ok, not the word 'Backspace' but that symbol and function. Most PC keyboards have the same left arrow (and as I understand it, taken AS backspace) and one Dell lappy I have here also has the word 'Backspace' on it. > >I suppose there may be some countries where it has a different symbol, >e.g. those with writing systems that don't go left-to-right, but let's >not complicate this even further! Please!
From: David Empson on 26 Jan 2010 05:29 T i m <news(a)spaced.me.uk> wrote: > On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 13:44:49 +1300, dempson(a)actrix.gen.nz (David > Empson) wrote: > > >T i m <news(a)spaced.me.uk> wrote: > > > >> On Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:13:27 +1300, dempson(a)actrix.gen.nz (David > >> Empson) wrote: > >> > >> >1. You always have a "Delete" key on the Macintosh. It is the one with > >> >the leftward pointing arrow above the Return key (on a UK keyboard). It > >> >acts as Backspace in Windows and has the same "delete left" function in > >> >Mac OS X. > >> > >> So a 'backspace' key if we were to tag these based on the most common > >> usage on the planet? > > > >Except it isn't called Backspace anywhere in Apple's documentation > >(except for contexts such as Boot Camp), nor on the keyboard legend in > >any country. > > Maybe not, however I ran a Help Desk for 5 years (Data Comms - Lan and > indirectly - Computers) and in any conversation where that key was > mentioned it was referred to as 'Backspace'? > > > Where it is named, it is called "Delete". > > OK. > > > > >> Ok. And Fn is the Apple / Helicopter key? > > > >No, that is the Command key. > > Doh! > > > >Fn is labelled "fn" on every Apple keyboard I've seen. It exists on all > >Mac laptop keyboards at least back to the PowerBook G3 (Firewire), in > >the extreme bottom left corner (Ctrl is one to the right). > > Right, where you describe fn is where I looked first to find it on > this Apple, long, white / transparent, as_supplied_for_the_Mini > keyboard and unless my glasses prescription needs to be a lot lot > different there is no fn key on here (and FWIW there is nothing to the > left of the Crrl key). ;-( The white/transparent keyboards don't have a "fn" key. It was added to desktop keyboards when Apple introduced the aluminium keyboards in August 2007. A "fn" key wouldn't serve any useful purpose on the white/transparent keyboard because it isn't missing any keys, and doesn't have any special actions assigned to the numbered function keys. The aluminium keyboards have various things like screen brightness, volume, iTunes playback control, Expose and Dashboard on some of the numbered function keys, so "fn" is useful to toggle between the "normal function key" and "special function" for those keys. On the small aluminium keyboard (or a laptop), fn is also useful to generate Forward Delete, Enter (in conjunction with Return), Page Up/Down (in conjunction with up/down arrow keys) and Home/End (in conjunction with left/right arrow keys). > >The fn key is in the same place on the small aluminium keyboards. > > It's near the place you describe on many of the keyboards I can see > from here (mainly laptops), just not on this one. > > > >The fn key is also included on the extended aluminium keyboards, in the > >position that "Ins" would be on a Windows keyboard, just above the > >Forward Delete key ("Del"). > > Ok. > > > > >On earlier Mac keyboards, the key above Forward Delete was "Help" (also > >labelled "ins" for when the computer was running Windows). > > Ah, mine just says Help. The "ins" notation probably disappeared somewhere between the 1997 keyboard I'm looking at and your 2006-ish one. :-) -- David Empson dempson(a)actrix.gen.nz
From: Rowland McDonnell on 26 Jan 2010 07:17
David Empson <dempson(a)actrix.gen.nz> wrote: > T i m <news(a)spaced.me.uk> wrote: > > > dempson(a)actrix.gen.nz (David Empson) wrote: > > > > >1. You always have a "Delete" key on the Macintosh. It is the one with > > >the leftward pointing arrow above the Return key (on a UK keyboard). It > > >acts as Backspace in Windows and has the same "delete left" function in > > >Mac OS X. > > > > So a 'backspace' key if we were to tag these based on the most common > > usage on the planet? > > Except it isn't called Backspace anywhere in Apple's documentation > (except for contexts such as Boot Camp), nor on the keyboard legend in > any country. Where it is named, it is called "Delete". [snip] Current usage, possibly. The original Macintosh manual - and I have one open here - has an index entry for the backspace key but no index mention of `delete' at all. You wanna scan of it by way of evidence? ;-) <evil grin> Or maybe a Webcam view of me[1], the keyboard in question, and the manual, all in view? Apple changes the way it uses words all the time. Once upon a time, an Apple SuperDrive was super because it could read 720/1.44MB DOSdiscs and 800K/1.4MB Mac discs[1]. The Apple software element called Cocoa was once a children's graphical programming environment. Apple changes terminology without notice or apology or even any admission that the terminology has changed - which can confuse people like me. It's a bit like Orwell's 1984... In the early Mac days, the `delete to the left' key was marked backspace. And then it changed. I don't know when. (note: the 1.4MB and 1.44MB formats held identical amounts of data: 1.4 MiB in each case. 1.44MB is a looney figure, arrived at by taking 1000 x 1024 as 1 MB. Go on, do the maths. I did. 1024^2 - that's okay for a meg. 1000^2 - that's okay for meg. 1000 x 1024? Whose idea was that?) Rowland. [1] Who did that album cover with the bloke in the bowler and an Apple obsuring his face? I was thinking of something similar, with a different Apple thingy. [2] Note: the 1.4MB and 1.44MB formats held identical amounts of data: 1.4 MiB in each case. 1.44MB is a looney figure, arrived at by taking 1000 x 1024 as 1 MB. Go on, do the maths. I did. 1024^2 - that's a sane definition for a meg. 1000^2 - that's a sane definition for a meg. 1000 x 1024? That's mental. -- Remove the animal for email address: rowland.mcdonnell(a)dog.physics.org Sorry - the spam got to me http://www.mag-uk.org http://www.bmf.co.uk UK biker? Join MAG and the BMF and stop the Eurocrats banning biking |