Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Enkidu on 6 Jul 2008 23:14 rbwinn <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> wrote in news:6ccd4537-241a-4536-af04- b31a6faec0de(a)x35g2000hsb.googlegroups.com: > Well, why don't you go ahead and believe what you want to believe, and > I will believe what I believe. Does that seem unfair to you? > Robert B. Winn If you were honest, you'd leave alt.atheism. But you won't. -- Enkidu AA#2165 EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, ULC, Modesto, CA It has been said that man is a rational animal. All my life I have been searching for evidence which could support this. -- Bertrand Russell
From: hhyapster on 6 Jul 2008 23:16 On Jul 5, 8:30 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jul 4, 7:29�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > > > On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 19:26:01 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote > > in alt.atheism: > > > >On Jul 4, 8:42?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > >> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:28:00 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote > > >> in alt.atheism: > > > >> >On Jul 4, 3:03?am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > > >> >> Alex W. wrote: > > >> >> > "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > >> >> >news:9fadb87c-6364-49eb-9ca6-c8fd555f6cd3(a)a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > > >> >> > On Jul 3, 6:05?am, "Alex W." <ing...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > >> >> >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > > >> >> >>news:f807e4d0-b40f-4cb8-bb4c-12f00021898d(a)34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > > > >> >> >> Well, the scriptures say that the wicked would be more miserable in > > >> >> >> the presence of God than with the devils in hell. > > > >> >> >> =========== > > > >> >> >> In other words, since we are all sinful by definition, the smart choice is > > >> >> >> to aim for hell in the first place. ?Nice morality .... > > > >> >> > No, the smart choice is to repent of sins. ?However, atheists claim > > >> >> > that nothing they do is sin, so they are not going to repent. > > > >> >> Which to me indicates you have no idea what sin, or repentance, is. > > > >> >> > ========== > > > >> >> > Sin is a social construct. ?It exists irrespective of the god(s) worshipped > > >> >> > ... or not, as the case may be.- Hide quoted text - > > > >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > >> >> - Show quoted text - > > > >> >Sin is wilful disobedience of God. ?Repentance is confessing and > > >> >forsaking sin. > > > >> As far as we can tell, God is a human invention. God never told us to do > > >> anything. Sin, therefore, is also a human invention.- Hide quoted text - > > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > >So once an atheist enters into sin, there is no turning back from > > >it. � I guess that was why Josef Stalin killed 12 million people. > > > God is still a human invention. Clearly the fear of God does not stop > > you from lying in almost every post. > > > I will not respond to you for a while, you have become far too nasty in > > your discussions here.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > I think that is wonderful. > Robert B. Winn Yes, Free Lunch may be feeling just as tired as I do. You don't have a sane mind and cannot argue logically and reasonably.
From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 6 Jul 2008 23:21 On Jul 6, 11:54 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jul 5, 2:31 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > > rbwinn wrote: > > > On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >> rbwinn wrote: > > >>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net..nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself? You were the one who thought of > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust. You decide what you are > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims? I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam. Why do you think > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish. To an atheist > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do. Since atheists > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it > > >>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support > > >>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well. The Assyrians came > > >>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home > > >>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt. Judea was a little dot in the > > >>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to > > >>>>>>>>>>> Egypt. So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King > > >>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah? Sennacherib > > >>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. > > >>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes? The column erected by Sennacherib > > >>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today. He plainly says on it that Hezekiah > > >>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home > > >>>>>>>>> after he got the money. > > >>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't > > >>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 > > >>>>>>>> troops in a night. > > >>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>> 186,000 troops. Chaldean historians of the same time said that the > > >>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and > > >>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. > > >>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he > > >>>>>>> erected. He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the > > >>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons > > >>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the > > >>>>>>> army. > > >>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides > > >>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever > > >>>>> against the Assyrians. But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian > > >>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life. So I would say, let > > >>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it > > >>>>> their way. The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord > > >>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops. That is a matter of record. It is > > >>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. > > >>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests > > >>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of > > >>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is > > >>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - > > >>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old > > >>> Testament, but it says what it says. It says in three different > > >>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians > > >>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. > > >> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of > > >> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - > > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > > Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time > > > unless you are talking about the earth. Then you insist on absolute > > > time. > > > Instead you make some ridiculous claims about the relativity of time > > completely without evidential basis, or... any rational support at all. > > The Earth is older than 6500 thousand years old. Much older. I'll go > > with the many independent lines of verification on that one.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Well, that is fine, but why is relativity of time something that > exists except when talking about the earth? > Robert B. Winn It's not. All time is relative to a frame of reference, but the effects of time dilation are very well understood and calculable. Meaning we can correct for dilation due to the earth's movement, if we wanted partial second accuracy. To have significant effects on time, like you are inferring, objects need to move at speeds close to the speed of light relative to each other. Al
From: hhyapster on 6 Jul 2008 23:33 On Jul 5, 8:41 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jul 4, 8:37�pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: > > > > > On Jul 4, 11:32 pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > > On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:26:53 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote > > > in alt.atheism: > > > > >On Jul 4, 2:57 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > > > >> rbwinn wrote: > > > >> > On Jul 3, 4:15?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> >> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 03:44:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote > > > >> >> in alt.atheism: > > > > >> >>> On Jul 2, 5:28?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > > >> >> ... > > > > >> >>>> Your claim is completely without support. Since you rely on an > > > >> >>>> indefensible claim for the rest of your doctrine, your doctrines are not > > > >> >>>> worth considering. > > > >> >>> Well, I consider God to be sufficient support. ?If you think He is > > > >> >>> not, ?go ahead and try to prove it. > > > >> >>> Robert B. Winn > > > >> >> Please provide any evidence that any claim ever made about God is true. > > > > >> > Well, there is an earthen ramp that the Assyrian army built to get > > > >> > over the city wall at Lachish. > > > > >> So? I have built several earthen ramps. > > > >> Am I then God? > > > > >> > Atheists do not believe in the earthen ramp. > > > > >> well firstly that is false, because I do believe in earthen ramps, > > > >> having built many, and I am an atheist. > > > > >> And secondly what has the fact that �person B may or may not believe > > > >> statement X, have to do with the existence, or not, of personality Z? > > > > >God did not build the earthen ramp. �The Assyrian army did. �God would > > > >have preferred that they did not build it and had left the city of > > > >Lachish and its inhabitants alone. > > > > Are you saying that God was powerless to stop them? > > > The bible contains enormous mistakes to glorify god yet plainly > > telling us that god is a useless being. > > The early Jews who wrote it were not educated, or might be drunk. Yes, > > more drunk than wake.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Well, as you say, if you think God is a useless being, then you will > choose to be with the beings you think of as being useful, other > atheists. > Robert B. Winn You do not realize that your bible has been projecting your god to be useless all the time? Just an example, Jesus, being the son of god, was not saved by the god? Another one, your god flooded the world to kill all human? What sort of god you think he is?
From: hhyapster on 6 Jul 2008 23:41
On Jul 6, 5:34 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 4, 6:37 pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: > >> On Jul 4, 7:09 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > >>> On Jul 3, 7:19 pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: > >>>> On Jul 4, 6:33 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 3, 2:01 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 2, 5:52�pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 17:26:00 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:15�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 8:49?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:14:36 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:07?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 00:17:22 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 3:58?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:06:02 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi....(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 4:12?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:23:58 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi....(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 7:07?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:06:07 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not lie. ?There actually is a conduit for water between Gihon > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spring and the pool of Siloam. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, as you know, that is not the lie I have pointed out to you. You lie > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here by falsely and intentionally trying to distract us from the lie > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under discussion. You know that no one imposes abortion in the United > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States. That is another in a long line of lies that you refuse to repent > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Supreme Court and other atheists imposed abortion on the United > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Abortion is not imposed. You know that. No one is ever forced to have an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abortion by our government. Stop lying to us. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Women have been forced to have abortions in order to get welfare > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Citation, please. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And our government still recognizes our right to trial by jury, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice attempt at distraction, but completely irrelevant. This has > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely nothing to do with women being forced to have abortions in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> order to get welfare assistance. Which is still a completely bogus > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim on your part. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How gullible do you think I am about "our government"? ?Or > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe you are just including atheists when you say "our government". > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't say you were gullible, I said you were lying. Your pathetic > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to change the subject, rather than support your claim, just > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confirms my assessment. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I personally know one woman who was subjected to governmental > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reproduction control. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Was she Chinese? Seriously, put up, or shut up. You made a claim; now > >>>>>>>>>>>> either back it up or retract it.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>> Do atheists have some special program for Chinese women in the United > >>>>>>>>>>> States? �We know they do in China. �However, there are a lot of women > >>>>>>>>>>> in the United States you do not even seem to consider, women in mental > >>>>>>>>>>> institutions, women in prisons, etc., but the one I know personally > >>>>>>>>>>> was just a woman who applied for welfare assistance. > >>>>>>>>>> Playing a slippery game, aren't you Robert? ;-)- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> I am not playing a game. �Atheists run China, and women in China > >>>>>>>>> definitely do get government ordered abortions. �It also happens here > >>>>>>>>> in the United States. > >>>>>>>> Again, bullshit. Provide one *documented* example of it happening in > >>>>>>>> the US. Not an anecdote about some woman you claim to know. Your > >>>>>>>> credibility is zero until you back up your claim.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Well, I would suspect that nothing like that ever gets documented.. > >>>>>>> Here in Phoenix a woman went to an abortion clinic, bled to death > >>>>>>> after the doctor went home, and the staff of the abortion clinic put > >>>>>>> her in the trunk of a car. Strangely, the police discovered when they > >>>>>>> found her body that none of it had been documented. So we do know > >>>>>>> that sometimes things do not get documented. > >>>>>> That is kind of sad. You have to do a lot of back-pedalling to try to > >>>>>> square your opinions with some vague notion of reality, don't you!- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Your claim is that no woman in the United States has ever been > >>>>> subjected to reproductive control. I say you are wrong. I personally > >>>>> know a woman who was. So let's talk about China. Do you claim that > >>>>> no women in China have ever been subjected to reproduction control? I > >>>>> believe that you atheists have a plan in place for the entire world, > >>>>> not just the United States and China. > >>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>> Yes, our plan is to rid this world of loonies and bigotry which is > >>>> leading the way backwards.... > >>>> You find that so bad?- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> Well, I believe Adolf Hitler had a similar plan. Just get rid of > >>> the inferior beings, and everything will be wonderful, right? So how > >>> does that get rid of bigotry? > >>> Robert B. Winn > >> No, Hitler planned for his race. > >> We want to get rid of falsehood/lies which impede human progress. > >> And if we stick to lies, how would that make us in the next generation?- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > About the same way you are now. > > Is there no end to your ability to stick your head in the sand and > ignore that virtually nothing you've said has any basis in fact? How long would you bet he can bury his head, before the sand choke his nose/mouth? |