Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 6 Jul 2008 22:18 On Jul 5, 1:07 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jul 3, 11:58 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > > rbwinn wrote: > > > On Jul 3, 2:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >> rbwinn wrote: > > >>> On Jul 2, 6:11 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > > >>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > > >>>> On Jul 3, 9:59 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > >>>>> On Jul 2, 1:28 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > > >>>>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > > >>>>>> On Jul 2, 11:30 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Jul 2, 12:13 am, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > > >>>>>>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 3:34 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 6:43 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > > >>>>>>>>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 11:27 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:14 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:34 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 12:25 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 6:06�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:26:59 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:50?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch..us> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jack wrote: > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence.. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So? > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never have believed in evolution. �I think it is a fable, just as > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul said it was. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul knew nothing about it. You mock the Bible with such silly > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interpretations of it.- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just believe what Paul said. You seem a little upset that I do not > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe your fable. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you please identify what he said about it? Please?- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers, having itching ears; > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned unto fables. > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't see any mention of evolution. I can't even see any description > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the theory, or even a theistic strawman description. Can you help me > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> out? You made a claim that seems difficult to substantiate.- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I think we are getting into subject matter that is too difficult > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> for you. Maybe we should go back to Hezekiah's tunnel. > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not struggling, maybe you could point out the verse where evolution > > >>>>>>>>>>>> is singled out. Maybe he's talking about the germ theory of disease. I'm > > >>>>>>>>>>>> sure you believe that demons are behind illness, rather than pathogens.- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>>> Well, Paul said that in the last days, men would be turned to fables > > >>>>>>>>>>> to explain things. So today we see science explaining most things by > > >>>>>>>>>>> fables. > > >>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > >>>>>>>>>> Please explain how "evolution" counts as a fable? And we'll show you > > >>>>>>>>>> how you understanding of evolution is horribly wrong. > > >>>>>>>>>> Al- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>>>> Well, as Paul pointed out, in the last days men would be unable to > > >>>>>>>>> endure sound doctrine and would devise a fable to try to explain the > > >>>>>>>>> existence of mankind without a God. > > >>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > >>>>>>>> That doesn't relate evolution to a fable. > > >>>>>>>> Do you ever answer a question that isn't just from your own > > >>>>>>>> imagination? > > >>>>>>>> Al- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>>>> It happened just the way Paul said it would. > > >>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > >>>>>> If you want to converse with the voices in your head, could you just > > >>>>>> leave out alt.atheism in your replies? Your posts are clearly not > > >>>>>> related to anything you're clicking reply on. > > >>>>>> Al- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>> As I understand it I have given a response to one of your posts that > > >>>>> does not comform to atheistic rules. > > >>>>> Robert B. Winn > > >>>> Those would be those rules about not lying blatantly? > > >>>> They're more like guidelines, and more Human than specifically > > >>>> atheist. > > >>> Well, Al, I always try to tell the truth. Sometimes I am given > > >>> information by atheists that turns out to be false, such as a large > > >>> portion of what I was taught in school. > > >> I'd love some examples of these "atheistic lies". You won't provide any > > >> though, right?- Hide quoted text - > > > > Well, we could start with Albert Einstein's description of > > > transmission of light, which is not a lie, but turns out to be false. > > > It requires a bona fide miracle to work. This is one miracle that > > > atheists never criticize. > > > Can we get a real physicist with a loony filter here to translate?- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > The Lorentz equations are > > x'=(x-vt)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) > y'=y > z'=z > t'=(t-vx/c^2)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) > > These equations require that a moving object contract in length in the > direction of movement. When the object reaches the speed of light its > length is 0. > Robert B. Winn An object can't reach the speed of light. Get over it. Al
From: hhyapster on 6 Jul 2008 22:33 On Jul 5, 6:17 pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > news:58898c9c-aad4-4d16-8b51-5ee0f0b2a835(a)a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > > > > > On Jul 4, 9:29�am, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > >>news:2491245c-d5d7-4548-a60c-460baa59d9b4(a)z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com.... > > >> >> Sin is what you think it is. > > >> > I think sin is wilful disobedience to God. > >> > Robert B. Winn > > >> In that case, I've never committed a sin. > >> God has never personally told me to do anything, so how is it possible > >> for > >> me to disobey him? > > > Well, Joesf Stalin said something very similar when he killed 12 > > million people. Atheists justify anything they do by saying there is > > no God. > > Robert B. Winn > > I don't think you are following the point here. > I didn't say that there is no God, I said that God has never personally > asked me to do or not do anything and it would therefore be impossible for > me to wilfully disobey him if I have never once received an order or request > from him. > So do you agree that I am sinless, by your definition of sin? > > -- > Steve O > a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter) > B.A.A.W.A. > Convicted by Earthquack, > Exempt from purgatory by papal indulgence Steve, I think you have presented your points incorrectly. First of all, being an atheist, we don't subscribe to a god and therefore we cannot say :"I didn't say there is no god...". There is no god, period. Secondly, we know that sin, in christianity, was a characteristic of human, the doing of their god. We are to question the logic of this presence when their god should not have provided in the first place....then get Jesus to died for it. It just plain senseless, amounting to meaningless.
From: hhyapster on 6 Jul 2008 22:35 On Jul 5, 6:23 pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > news:03bf56d3-b444-4a0c-998b-880bcd9a17d9(a)l64g2000hse.googlegroups.com... > > > > > On Jul 4, 9:35�am, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >> news:2efb0043-fcce-424b-9881-> > > >> God has never commanded me to do anything at any time. > >> I've never even met the guy. > >> Therefore, I have never disobeyed him. > >> As it is your belief that sin is when someone disobeys God, then I have > >> never sinned. > >> So does that mean I get to go to heaven? > > >> -- > >> Steve O > > > No, atheists like you and Josef Stalin do not accept the atonement of > > Christ for your sins. > > You have already claimed that I have committed no sin, because by your > definition, sin is the wilful disobedience of God > I have never wilfully disobeyed God because I have never once received any > command, request or instruction from him. > If I have never sinned, then I have no sins to atone for, therefore you are > wrong. > > > Therefore you have to pay the penalty for them > > yourself. > > What sins? > How can I pay a penalty for sins I have never committed? > > You haven't really thought this one out, have you? > You are either going to have to disagree that your definition of sin is > wrong, or I have never committed a sin. > Which one is it? > > -- > Steve O > a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter) > B.A.A.W.A. > Convicted by Earthquack, > Exempt from purgatory by papal indulgence If you can talk logic with this guy, then this world will be peaceful from the beginning.
From: rbwinn on 6 Jul 2008 22:39 On Jul 6, 4:26�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Mon, 07 Jul 2008 08:59:50 +1200, BuddyThunder > <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in alt.atheism: > > > > > > >rbwinn wrote: > >> On Jul 6, 12:57 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>> On Jul 5, 2:40 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>> On Jul 4, 8:37?pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 4, 11:32 pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:26:53 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote > >>>>>>>> in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 4, 2:57 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 4:15?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 03:44:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote > >>>>>>>>>>>> in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 5:28?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> ... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your claim is completely without support. Since you rely on an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> indefensible claim for the rest of your doctrine, your doctrines are not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> worth considering. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I consider God to be sufficient support. ?If you think He is > >>>>>>>>>>>>> not, ?go ahead and try to prove it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>>>> Please provide any evidence that any claim ever made about God is true. > >>>>>>>>>>> Well, there is an earthen ramp that the Assyrian army built to get > >>>>>>>>>>> over the city wall at Lachish. > >>>>>>>>>> So? I have built several earthen ramps. > >>>>>>>>>> Am I then God? > >>>>>>>>>>> Atheists do not believe in the earthen ramp. > >>>>>>>>>> well firstly that is false, because I do believe in earthen ramps, > >>>>>>>>>> having built many, and I am an atheist. > >>>>>>>>>> And secondly what has the fact that ?person B may or may not believe > >>>>>>>>>> statement X, have to do with the existence, or not, of personality Z? > >>>>>>>>> God did not build the earthen ramp. ?The Assyrian army did. ?God would > >>>>>>>>> have preferred that they did not build it and had left the city of > >>>>>>>>> Lachish and its inhabitants alone. > >>>>>>>> Are you saying that God was powerless to stop them? > >>>>>>> The bible contains enormous mistakes to glorify god yet plainly > >>>>>>> telling us that god is a useless being. > >>>>>>> The early Jews who wrote it were not educated, or might be drunk. Yes, > >>>>>>> more drunk than wake.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>> Well, as you say, if you think God is a useless being, then you will > >>>>>> choose to be with the beings you think of as being useful, other > >>>>>> atheists. > >>>>> So you concede there are many mistakes or untruths in the Bible then?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>> Why does it depend on me? � The Bible is what it is. �If you do not > >>>> like the Bible, read something else. > >>> No answer? I just wanted to know how reliable you thought the Bible was. > >>> I know it to be full of errors and distortions, just wondered what your > >>> position on it was. You seem to think it better than other sacred texts > >>> for some reason.- Hide quoted text - > > >>> - Show quoted text - > > >> I think the Bible is very reliable. �The Jews were very meticulous as > >> far as preserving ancient writings. �For instance, the Dead Sea > >> scrolls of Isaiah are a good example of how accurately the Bible was > >> translated. > > >The Bible was very accurately transcribed - for humans. They did an > >amazing job. Not a perfect job, there are lots of differences between > >the early versions we have, but not bad for a bunch of people. > > >It's the content that I find even less reliable though, that's what I > >was driving at, and I think you know that. > > >Much reported as history in the Bible simply never happened. No global > >flood, no special creation, no exodus... > > Yes, copying a mistake faithfully does not make the mistake go away.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, that is something atheists have a lot of experience with. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 6 Jul 2008 22:41
On Jul 6, 4:45 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 6, 1:53 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 6, 12:44 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 5, 2:31 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net..nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise..net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself?  You were the one who thought of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust.  You decide what you are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims?  I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam.  Why do you think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish..  To an atheist > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do.  Since atheists > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well.  The Assyrians came > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt.  Judea was a little dot in the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Egypt.  So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah?  Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes?  The column erected by Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today.  He plainly says on it that Hezekiah > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after he got the money. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> troops in a night. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 186,000 troops.  Chaldean historians of the same time said that the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he > >>>>>>>>>>>>> erected.  He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons > >>>>>>>>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> army. > >>>>>>>>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides > >>>>>>>>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever > >>>>>>>>>>> against the Assyrians.  But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian > >>>>>>>>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life.  So I would say, let > >>>>>>>>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it > >>>>>>>>>>> their way.  The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord > >>>>>>>>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops.  That is a matter of record.  It is > >>>>>>>>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. > >>>>>>>>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests > >>>>>>>>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of > >>>>>>>>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is > >>>>>>>>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old > >>>>>>>>> Testament, but it says what it says.  It says in three different > >>>>>>>>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians > >>>>>>>>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. > >>>>>>>> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of > >>>>>>>> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time > >>>>>>> unless you are talking about the earth.  Then you insist on absolute > >>>>>>> time. > >>>>>> Instead you make some ridiculous claims about the relativity of time > >>>>>> completely without evidential basis, or... any rational support at all. > >>>>>> The Earth is older than 6500 thousand years old. Much older. I'll go > >>>>>> with the many independent lines of verification on that one.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Well, that is fine, but why is relativity of time something that > >>>>> exists except when talking about the earth? > >>>> Because Earth isn't travelling at near light speed. I'm no physicist but...- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> So what makes you believe that motion is the only factor that would > >>> affect time? > >> Gee, I dunno. Until you back up your notions, it's hard to know what > >> you're on about. > > >> What makes you think that you know better than every mainstream > >> peer-reviewed physicist on the planet?- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Every mainstream peer reviewed physicist on the planet uses the > > Lorentz equation.  There is no way that the Lorentz equations could be > > more than a close approximation. > > I don't have the grounding in physics to sensibly contend the point. I > will delegate anything beyond my high-school physics to mainstream > scientific consensus. You seem to be at odds with them, if you believe > you really have a breakthrough for physics, you should publish so we may > all benefit from the new knowledge.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - It cannot be done. I talk to scientists in sci.physics.relativity. That is all I am ever going to do. Robert B. Winn |