Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: DanielSan on 1 Aug 2008 11:26 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 31, 6:21�pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 31, 5:52 am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 30, 10:15 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 6:14 pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>> news:9dcddedb-bce6-457f-b0c5-d9a6d2bb6bd7(a)m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>> On Jul 22, 10:04?am, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>> news:8ab589a3-2731-4a92-a41e-d6870a4e6f4b(a)k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 21, 10:08 pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>> news:efa8da13-56b6-4386-bfe5-c571b689a669(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. >>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no evidence at all about God.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like me to send you a copy of the Bible? >>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>>>> You could, but it would be much better if you could provide some >>>>>>>>>>> evidence >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> God as well. >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Steve O >>>>>>>>>> God sent His Only Begotten Son, Steve. ?If that was not enough for >>>>>>>>>> you, nothing I could do or say is going to convince you of anything. >>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>> Got any evidence that Jesus was the son of God? >>>>>>>>> Please don't say, "the Bible" - that isn't evidence of anything at all, >>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>> just an old, old story. >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Steve O >>>>>>>> Well, actually the Bible is evidence of Hezekiah's tunnel. Three >>>>>>>> different books of the Old Testament describe the construction of >>>>>>>> Hezekiah's tunnel. >>>>>>>> ================================ >>>>>>>> Several of the Harry Potter books mention Kings Cross station. >>>>>>>> Does that make the Harry Potter stories true? >>>>>>>> Smiler, >>>>>>> Why don't you spend some more time studying it, Smiler, and decide for >>>>>>> yourself? I know that atheists are a little lacking in self- >>>>>>> confidence, but I think you could decide this question for yourself. >>>>>> I've studied Hezekiah's Tunnel since you brought it up. I still fail to >>>>>> see what its existence has to do with the truthfulness of the Bible. >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ****************************************************** >>>>>> * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * >>>>> Well, first you would have to make a decision about Hezekiah's >>>>> tunnel. Does the tunnel really exist or is it just a hoax the way one >>>>> atheist claimed? >>>> Which atheist? Provide a quote. >>>>> Then if you decide it exists, how does that relate >>>>> to the description of its construction in the Old Testament? Was the >>>>> tunnel seen today the tunnel described in the Old Testament, or is it >>>>> some other tunnel the way atheists continue to say in this newsgroup? >>>> Which atheists? Provide quotes. >>>>> I know this is difficult, but it really is possible for an atheist to >>>>> make a decision about this. >>>>> The verses of the Bible that describe the construction of Hezekiah's >>>>> tunnel are either true, or they are false. So far, having said that >>>>> the Bible is only myth, atheists are not willing to admit that there >>>>> are verses describing the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel that are >>>>> obviously true. >>>> How about this mindblower: >>>> Hezekiah's Tunnel exists. The Bible talks about it. The Bible is >>>> true...on this fact only...but has nothing to do with the truthfulness >>>> of the Bible. >>>> Look at every fiction story ever written. A great majority of them >>>> write about the Earth. An even greater majority talk about humans. >>>> Does that mean that the book itself is now nonfiction since it describe >>>> the Earth exactly how we see it today and how humans are? >>> Well, we have made progress to a point, that an atheist has admitted >>> that the Biblical account of the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel is >>> true. �First of all, not all fiction books describe the construction >>> of something that can be observed. >> And that's irrelevant. >> >>> But your premise is wrong. �Just because you can find a fiction book >>> that describes something that can be seen does not prove that all >>> books that describe something that can be seen are fiction. >> Doesn't prove they're nonfiction, either. �You're starting to get it. >> Just because a book talks about the construction of something is >> irrelevant to the veracity of the book. > > No, it is not irrelevant. Yes. Yes, it is. > >>> �The >>> furthest you can go �would be to say that the book that describes >>> something that can be seen could be fiction or non-fiction, but you >>> cannot say that you have proven it to be fiction. �So you would have >>> to find something else in the book that you claim is fiction, not >>> Hezekiah's tunnel, which has been proven to be non-fiction. �I hope >>> this will help you in your studies. >> When you get on to proving that God thing as non-fiction, do let me know. >> >> -- > God already proved it. If you reject the atonement of Christ for your > sins, it is your problem, not mine. God has done nothing of the sort. Someone told you that God proved it, but do you have any evidence that he did? PS: Your threat given vicariously through some dead guy we can't even show to exist is summarily rejected. -- **************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *--------------------------------------------------* * Can God create a Thai dish so spicy that even He * * can't eat it? * ****************************************************
From: DanielSan on 1 Aug 2008 11:28 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 31, 7:05�pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: >> On Aug 1, 8:10 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jul 31, 5:52 am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 30, 10:15 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 6:14 pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>> news:9dcddedb-bce6-457f-b0c5-d9a6d2bb6bd7(a)m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>> On Jul 22, 10:04?am, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>> news:8ab589a3-2731-4a92-a41e-d6870a4e6f4b(a)k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 21, 10:08 pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>> news:efa8da13-56b6-4386-bfe5-c571b689a669(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>>>>>>>> God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. >>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no evidence at all about God.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like me to send you a copy of the Bible? >>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>>>> You could, but it would be much better if you could provide some >>>>>>>>>>> evidence >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> God as well. >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Steve O >>>>>>>>>> God sent His Only Begotten Son, Steve. ?If that was not enough for >>>>>>>>>> you, nothing I could do or say is going to convince you of anything. >>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>> Got any evidence that Jesus was the son of God? >>>>>>>>> Please don't say, "the Bible" - that isn't evidence of anything at all, >>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>> just an old, old story. >>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> Steve O >>>>>>>> Well, actually the Bible is evidence of Hezekiah's tunnel. Three >>>>>>>> different books of the Old Testament describe the construction of >>>>>>>> Hezekiah's tunnel. >>>>>>>> ================================ >>>>>>>> Several of the Harry Potter books mention Kings Cross station. >>>>>>>> Does that make the Harry Potter stories true? >>>>>>>> Smiler, >>>>>>> Why don't you spend some more time studying it, Smiler, and decide for >>>>>>> yourself? I know that atheists are a little lacking in self- >>>>>>> confidence, but I think you could decide this question for yourself. >>>>>> I've studied Hezekiah's Tunnel since you brought it up. I still fail to >>>>>> see what its existence has to do with the truthfulness of the Bible. >>>>>> -- >>>>>> ****************************************************** >>>>>> * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * >>>>> Well, first you would have to make a decision about Hezekiah's >>>>> tunnel. Does the tunnel really exist or is it just a hoax the way one >>>>> atheist claimed? >>>> Which atheist? Provide a quote. >>>>> Then if you decide it exists, how does that relate >>>>> to the description of its construction in the Old Testament? Was the >>>>> tunnel seen today the tunnel described in the Old Testament, or is it >>>>> some other tunnel the way atheists continue to say in this newsgroup? >>>> Which atheists? Provide quotes. >>>>> I know this is difficult, but it really is possible for an atheist to >>>>> make a decision about this. >>>>> The verses of the Bible that describe the construction of Hezekiah's >>>>> tunnel are either true, or they are false. So far, having said that >>>>> the Bible is only myth, atheists are not willing to admit that there >>>>> are verses describing the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel that are >>>>> obviously true. >>>> How about this mindblower: >>>> Hezekiah's Tunnel exists. The Bible talks about it. The Bible is >>>> true...on this fact only...but has nothing to do with the truthfulness >>>> of the Bible. >>>> Look at every fiction story ever written. A great majority of them >>>> write about the Earth. An even greater majority talk about humans. >>>> Does that mean that the book itself is now nonfiction since it describe >>>> the Earth exactly how we see it today and how humans are? >>> Well, we have made progress to a point, that an atheist has admitted >>> that the Biblical account of the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel is >>> true. �First of all, not all fiction books describe the construction >>> of something that can be observed. >>> But your premise is wrong. �Just because you can find a fiction book >>> that describes something that can be seen does not prove that all >>> books that describe something that can be seen are fiction. >> Your misapprehension of his premise is noted. >> >>> The >>> furthest you can go �would be to say that the book that describes >>> something that can be seen could be fiction or non-fiction, but you >>> cannot say that you have proven it to be fiction. �So you would have >>> to find something else in the book that you claim is fiction, not >>> Hezekiah's tunnel, which has been proven to be non-fiction. �I hope >>> this will help you in your studies. >> Yes. >> Using that logic and one data point, this means the bible is fiction >> or non-fiction. >> Using a second data point, say global flood, proves the bible is a >> work of fiction. >> >> Al- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, no it does not. What you are claiming is that if you can find a > mistake or something debatable in a non-fiction book, then you have > proven it is fiction. No. > What makes a book fiction or non-fiction is the > intent of the author or authors. A fiction book is an account of > imaginary events. ....or people. > A perceived mistake in a non-fiction book can > happen because of a misinterpretation of events by either the author > or reader of the book. So, you're saying that the Bible has mistakes? -- **************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *--------------------------------------------------* * Can God create a Thai dish so spicy that even He * * can't eat it? * ****************************************************
From: DanielSan on 1 Aug 2008 11:29 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 31, 8:55�pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 31, 2:47 pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>> news:e614fbd1-1d14-42db-856a-84936af30751(a)s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... >>>>> OnJul30, 10:32 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" >>>>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: >>>>>> OnJul31, 2:57 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >>>>>>> OnJul30, 6:07 pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Wed, 30Jul2008 17:57:19 -0700 (PDT), in alt.atheism >>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in >>>>>>>> <4937d184-9c40-4146-a3bb-b72b0333d...(a)z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>: >>>>>>>>> OnJul30, 3:43?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Tue,29Jul2008 21:46:16 -0700 (PDT), in alt.atheism >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in >>>>>>>>>> <5756c0f4-924c-42b6-b121-8d1294e14...(a)m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>: >>>>>>>>>>> OnJul22, 4:36?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 21Jul2008 20:27:01 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn >>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>> OnJul21, 6:51?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 21Jul2008 17:58:47 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OnJul21, 5:15?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 21Jul2008 06:27:20 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OnJul20, 4:53?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20Jul2008 14:57:06 -0700, DanielSan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OnJul20, 10:18 am, DanielSan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, Jesus didn't say it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul said it. ?He was one of the twelve apostles. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, Jesus didn't say it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, as we all know, Paul was not one of the Twelve. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if you doubt that Paul was one of the twelve, why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't you wait >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until after you are resurrected and ask Paul if he was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twelve? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are really ignorant about the Bible. No wonder you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insist on making >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a fool of yourself. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clue. Even Paul tells us he wasn't one of the Twelve. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there were aGod, He would strike you down for being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such a bad >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The book of Acts says Paul was ordained an apostle, Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> says he is an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apostle. ?Paul was an apostle, regardless of how many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> atheists of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> today say he was not. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Once again, you choose to lie rather than admit your error. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nowhere in >>>>>>>>>>>>>> the entire Bibledoesit say that Paul was one of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twelve. That was a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim you made up that was not true. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keep lying. Prove to us how much of a fake you are.- Hide >>>>>>>>>>>>>> quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> Acts 14:14 ?Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard >>>>>>>>>>>>> of, they >>>>>>>>>>>>> rent their clothes, and ran in among the people crying out. >>>>>>>>>>>> So, as you can see, apostledoesnot mean 'one of the Twelve'. >>>>>>>>>>>> Please, learn the myths you are trying to sell us. Yourgod >>>>>>>>>>>> would be >>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed by your ignorance if he existed.- Hide quoted >>>>>>>>>>>> text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> Well, yes itdoesmean ?one of the Twelve. >>>>>>>>>> Then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Go waste >>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>> time reading the Gospels, Acts and letters to find out that _no >>>>>>>>>> one_ >>>>>>>>>> thought that Paul was one of the Twelve.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Well, Paul thought he was. I don't think he would have gone around >>>>>>>>> lying about it. >>>>>>>> You are lying about what Paul said. He never claimed to be one of the >>>>>>>> Twelve.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> He said he was an apostle. He would not have said that if he had not >>>>>>> been ordained. >>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>> I am an apostle. >>>>>> Al- Hide quoted text - >>>>> So who ordained you an apostle? >>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>> You did. >>>> You said that people who say they are an apostle are an ordained apostle, >>>> and that they wouldn't say they were an apostle unless they were an apostle. >>>> It's right up there, in the text. >>>> -- >>>> Steve O >>> Paul was ordained an apostle. �Al was not. >> I ordain Al as an apostle. >> >> -- > You would have to be an apostle to ordain an apostle. I've already been ordained an apostle. -- **************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *--------------------------------------------------* * Can God create a Thai dish so spicy that even He * * can't eat it? * ****************************************************
From: DanielSan on 1 Aug 2008 11:29 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 31, 8:56�pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>> Why don't we just wait for him before judging them then? >>>>>> I happen to think that if anyone needs judging it is the liars and >>>>>> hypocrites. But you don't see me campaigning to remove their human >>>>>> rights. >>>>> Well, yes, I do. Like other atheists you campaign for abortion, >>>>> which removes the right to live of the people who are killed. >>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>> Please show me evidence that I've campaigned for abortion. Because >>>> that's a flat out lie. And is that your best effort at demonising >>>> atheists? >>>> Al- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Atheists have caused more abortions than any other group of people. >> So, you can't show evidence where atheists (like Al) have campaigned for >> abortion. �You have lied. >> >> -- > > Josef Stalin was an atheist like Al. While Josef Stalin was dictator > of the Soviet Union, the number of abortions in Russia increased to > about five per woman. > In the People's Republic of China, women who have had one child are > required by the state to abort any children conceived after the first > child is born. So, you have lied. -- **************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *--------------------------------------------------* * Can God create a Thai dish so spicy that even He * * can't eat it? * ****************************************************
From: DanielSan on 1 Aug 2008 11:36
rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 31, 9:20�pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 31, 6:04 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> OnJul31, 5:36 am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> OnJul30, 9:49 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> OnJul30, 6:04 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> OnJul30, 3:40 pm, Stan-O <bndsna...(a)aol.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 30Jul2008 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Under World Communism one of the pre-requisites for being a dictator >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was being an atheist. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because Karl Marx said that religion was the opiate of the people. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Religious people were not allowed to be Communist dictators. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ...and to think that Marx himself was Jewish...- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> Marx said that he was an atheist. How is it that now that Communism >>>>>>>>>>>>> has failed, all of these Communist icons are suddenly religious men? >>>>>>>>>>>> Because you read filtered propaganda instead of doing any research >>>>>>>>>>>> into their backgrounds. >>>>>>>>>>> Well, I knew that Karl Marx was born to a Jewish family and became an >>>>>>>>>>> atheist. I knew that Josef Stalin was born into a Russian Orthodox >>>>>>>>>>> family and became an atheist. Those are just facts. So how do >>>>>>>>>>> atheists of today hope to change the facts by claiming that these two >>>>>>>>>>> individuals were religious men? >>>>>>>>>> So, you believe Marx and Stalin when they claimed to be atheists? >>>>>>>>> I absolutely do. They sound just like atheists of today. >>>>>>>> You mean, you don't think they were lying for political gain? >>>>>>> Yes, they were lying for political gain >>>>>> Therefore, it's possible they weren't atheists. >>>>> Well, no, it is not possible. There were no Communist dictators who >>>>> were not atheists. >>>> ...that you will admit to existing, you mean. >>> Well, tell me one and we will see if I admit it. >> Already done with Muntzer. >> > Already done? So in what nation was he head of state? First, define "nation". -- **************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *--------------------------------------------------* * Can God create a Thai dish so spicy that even He * * can't eat it? * **************************************************** |