Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: DanielSan on 2 Aug 2008 02:54 rbwinn wrote: > On Aug 1, 8:26�am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 31, 6:21 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 31, 5:52 am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 10:15 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 6:14 pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>> news:9dcddedb-bce6-457f-b0c5-d9a6d2bb6bd7(a)m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 22, 10:04?am, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>> news:8ab589a3-2731-4a92-a41e-d6870a4e6f4b(a)k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 21, 10:08 pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>> news:efa8da13-56b6-4386-bfe5-c571b689a669(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no evidence at all about God.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like me to send you a copy of the Bible? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>>>>>> You could, but it would be much better if you could provide some >>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> God as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Steve O >>>>>>>>>>>> God sent His Only Begotten Son, Steve. ?If that was not enough for >>>>>>>>>>>> you, nothing I could do or say is going to convince you of anything. >>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>>>> Got any evidence that Jesus was the son of God? >>>>>>>>>>> Please don't say, "the Bible" - that isn't evidence of anything at all, >>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>>> just an old, old story. >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Steve O >>>>>>>>>> Well, actually the Bible is evidence of Hezekiah's tunnel. Three >>>>>>>>>> different books of the Old Testament describe the construction of >>>>>>>>>> Hezekiah's tunnel. >>>>>>>>>> ================================ >>>>>>>>>> Several of the Harry Potter books mention Kings Cross station. >>>>>>>>>> Does that make the Harry Potter stories true? >>>>>>>>>> Smiler, >>>>>>>>> Why don't you spend some more time studying it, Smiler, and decide for >>>>>>>>> yourself? I know that atheists are a little lacking in self- >>>>>>>>> confidence, but I think you could decide this question for yourself. >>>>>>>> I've studied Hezekiah's Tunnel since you brought it up. I still fail to >>>>>>>> see what its existence has to do with the truthfulness of the Bible. >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> ****************************************************** >>>>>>>> * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * >>>>>>> Well, first you would have to make a decision about Hezekiah's >>>>>>> tunnel. Does the tunnel really exist or is it just a hoax the way one >>>>>>> atheist claimed? >>>>>> Which atheist? Provide a quote. >>>>>>> Then if you decide it exists, how does that relate >>>>>>> to the description of its construction in the Old Testament? Was the >>>>>>> tunnel seen today the tunnel described in the Old Testament, or is it >>>>>>> some other tunnel the way atheists continue to say in this newsgroup? >>>>>> Which atheists? Provide quotes. >>>>>>> I know this is difficult, but it really is possible for an atheist to >>>>>>> make a decision about this. >>>>>>> The verses of the Bible that describe the construction of Hezekiah's >>>>>>> tunnel are either true, or they are false. So far, having said that >>>>>>> the Bible is only myth, atheists are not willing to admit that there >>>>>>> are verses describing the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel that are >>>>>>> obviously true. >>>>>> How about this mindblower: >>>>>> Hezekiah's Tunnel exists. The Bible talks about it. The Bible is >>>>>> true...on this fact only...but has nothing to do with the truthfulness >>>>>> of the Bible. >>>>>> Look at every fiction story ever written. A great majority of them >>>>>> write about the Earth. An even greater majority talk about humans. >>>>>> Does that mean that the book itself is now nonfiction since it describe >>>>>> the Earth exactly how we see it today and how humans are? >>>>> Well, we have made progress to a point, that an atheist has admitted >>>>> that the Biblical account of the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel is >>>>> true. First of all, not all fiction books describe the construction >>>>> of something that can be observed. >>>> And that's irrelevant. >>>>> But your premise is wrong. Just because you can find a fiction book >>>>> that describes something that can be seen does not prove that all >>>>> books that describe something that can be seen are fiction. >>>> Doesn't prove they're nonfiction, either. You're starting to get it. >>>> Just because a book talks about the construction of something is >>>> irrelevant to the veracity of the book. >>> No, it is not irrelevant. >> Yes. �Yes, it is. >> >> >> >>>>> The >>>>> furthest you can go would be to say that the book that describes >>>>> something that can be seen could be fiction or non-fiction, but you >>>>> cannot say that you have proven it to be fiction. So you would have >>>>> to find something else in the book that you claim is fiction, not >>>>> Hezekiah's tunnel, which has been proven to be non-fiction. I hope >>>>> this will help you in your studies. >>>> When you get on to proving that God thing as non-fiction, do let me know. >>>> -- >>> God already proved it. �If you reject the atonement of Christ for your >>> sins, it is your problem, not mine. >> God has done nothing of the sort. �Someone told you that God proved it, >> but do you have any evidence that he did? >> >> PS: Your threat given vicariously through some dead guy we can't even >> show to exist is summarily rejected. >> > There is no threat. Sure there is. The failure to atone for "sins" is everlasting torture. > You atheists say that you do not want to enter > heaven. You will get exactly what you say you want. So where is the > threat? > It is a threat to give someone what they say they want? You've not heard of "Hell", have you? -- **************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *--------------------------------------------------* * Can God create a Thai dish so spicy that even He * * can't eat it? * ****************************************************
From: DanielSan on 2 Aug 2008 02:55 rbwinn wrote: > On Aug 1, 8:28�am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 31, 7:05 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" >>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: >>>> On Aug 1, 8:10 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >>>>> On Jul 31, 5:52 am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 30, 10:15 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jul 30, 6:14 pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>> news:9dcddedb-bce6-457f-b0c5-d9a6d2bb6bd7(a)m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 22, 10:04?am, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>> news:8ab589a3-2731-4a92-a41e-d6870a4e6f4b(a)k13g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 21, 10:08 pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>>>>>>>>> news:efa8da13-56b6-4386-bfe5-c571b689a669(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You have no evidence at all about God.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Would you like me to send you a copy of the Bible? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>>>>>> You could, but it would be much better if you could provide some >>>>>>>>>>>>> evidence >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> God as well. >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> Steve O >>>>>>>>>>>> God sent His Only Begotten Son, Steve. ?If that was not enough for >>>>>>>>>>>> you, nothing I could do or say is going to convince you of anything. >>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>>>> Got any evidence that Jesus was the son of God? >>>>>>>>>>> Please don't say, "the Bible" - that isn't evidence of anything at all, >>>>>>>>>>> it's >>>>>>>>>>> just an old, old story. >>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>> Steve O >>>>>>>>>> Well, actually the Bible is evidence of Hezekiah's tunnel. Three >>>>>>>>>> different books of the Old Testament describe the construction of >>>>>>>>>> Hezekiah's tunnel. >>>>>>>>>> ================================ >>>>>>>>>> Several of the Harry Potter books mention Kings Cross station. >>>>>>>>>> Does that make the Harry Potter stories true? >>>>>>>>>> Smiler, >>>>>>>>> Why don't you spend some more time studying it, Smiler, and decide for >>>>>>>>> yourself? I know that atheists are a little lacking in self- >>>>>>>>> confidence, but I think you could decide this question for yourself. >>>>>>>> I've studied Hezekiah's Tunnel since you brought it up. I still fail to >>>>>>>> see what its existence has to do with the truthfulness of the Bible. >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>> ****************************************************** >>>>>>>> * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * >>>>>>> Well, first you would have to make a decision about Hezekiah's >>>>>>> tunnel. Does the tunnel really exist or is it just a hoax the way one >>>>>>> atheist claimed? >>>>>> Which atheist? Provide a quote. >>>>>>> Then if you decide it exists, how does that relate >>>>>>> to the description of its construction in the Old Testament? Was the >>>>>>> tunnel seen today the tunnel described in the Old Testament, or is it >>>>>>> some other tunnel the way atheists continue to say in this newsgroup? >>>>>> Which atheists? Provide quotes. >>>>>>> I know this is difficult, but it really is possible for an atheist to >>>>>>> make a decision about this. >>>>>>> The verses of the Bible that describe the construction of Hezekiah's >>>>>>> tunnel are either true, or they are false. So far, having said that >>>>>>> the Bible is only myth, atheists are not willing to admit that there >>>>>>> are verses describing the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel that are >>>>>>> obviously true. >>>>>> How about this mindblower: >>>>>> Hezekiah's Tunnel exists. The Bible talks about it. The Bible is >>>>>> true...on this fact only...but has nothing to do with the truthfulness >>>>>> of the Bible. >>>>>> Look at every fiction story ever written. A great majority of them >>>>>> write about the Earth. An even greater majority talk about humans. >>>>>> Does that mean that the book itself is now nonfiction since it describe >>>>>> the Earth exactly how we see it today and how humans are? >>>>> Well, we have made progress to a point, that an atheist has admitted >>>>> that the Biblical account of the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel is >>>>> true. First of all, not all fiction books describe the construction >>>>> of something that can be observed. >>>>> But your premise is wrong. Just because you can find a fiction book >>>>> that describes something that can be seen does not prove that all >>>>> books that describe something that can be seen are fiction. >>>> Your misapprehension of his premise is noted. >>>>> The >>>>> furthest you can go would be to say that the book that describes >>>>> something that can be seen could be fiction or non-fiction, but you >>>>> cannot say that you have proven it to be fiction. So you would have >>>>> to find something else in the book that you claim is fiction, not >>>>> Hezekiah's tunnel, which has been proven to be non-fiction. I hope >>>>> this will help you in your studies. >>>> Yes. >>>> Using that logic and one data point, this means the bible is fiction >>>> or non-fiction. >>>> Using a second data point, say global flood, proves the bible is a >>>> work of fiction. >>>> Al- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Well, no it does not. �What you are claiming is that if you can find a >>> mistake or something debatable in a non-fiction book, then you have >>> proven it is fiction. � >> No. >> >>> What makes a book fiction or non-fiction is the >>> intent of the author or authors. �A fiction book is an account of >>> imaginary events. � >> ...or people. >> >>> A perceived mistake in a non-fiction book can >>> happen because of a misinterpretation of events by either the author >>> or reader of the book. >> So, you're saying that the Bible has mistakes? >> > Yes, the Bible has mistakes. You're in contention with many Christians who believe the Bible to be inerrant. -- **************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *--------------------------------------------------* * Can God create a Thai dish so spicy that even He * * can't eat it? * ****************************************************
From: DanielSan on 2 Aug 2008 02:56 rbwinn wrote: > On Aug 1, 8:29�am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 31, 8:55 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 31, 2:47 pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:e614fbd1-1d14-42db-856a-84936af30751(a)s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... >>>>>>> OnJul30, 10:32 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" >>>>>>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: >>>>>>>> OnJul31, 2:57 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> OnJul30, 6:07 pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 30Jul2008 17:57:19 -0700 (PDT), in alt.atheism >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in >>>>>>>>>> <4937d184-9c40-4146-a3bb-b72b0333d...(a)z66g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>: >>>>>>>>>>> OnJul30, 3:43?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue,29Jul2008 21:46:16 -0700 (PDT), in alt.atheism >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in >>>>>>>>>>>> <5756c0f4-924c-42b6-b121-8d1294e14...(a)m44g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>: >>>>>>>>>>>>> OnJul22, 4:36?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 21Jul2008 20:27:01 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn >>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OnJul21, 6:51?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 21Jul2008 17:58:47 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OnJul21, 5:15?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 21Jul2008 06:27:20 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OnJul20, 4:53?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 20Jul2008 14:57:06 -0700, DanielSan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> OnJul20, 10:18 am, DanielSan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, Jesus didn't say it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul said it. ?He was one of the twelve apostles. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, Jesus didn't say it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, as we all know, Paul was not one of the Twelve. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if you doubt that Paul was one of the twelve, why >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't you wait >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> until after you are resurrected and ask Paul if he was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> one of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> twelve? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are really ignorant about the Bible. No wonder you >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> insist on making >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a fool of yourself. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Clue. Even Paul tells us he wasn't one of the Twelve. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If there were aGod, He would strike you down for being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> such a bad >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> example.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The book of Acts says Paul was ordained an apostle, Paul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> says he is an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apostle. ?Paul was an apostle, regardless of how many >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> atheists of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> today say he was not. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Once again, you choose to lie rather than admit your error. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nowhere in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the entire Bibledoesit say that Paul was one of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Twelve. That was a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim you made up that was not true. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keep lying. Prove to us how much of a fake you are.- Hide >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Acts 14:14 ?Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rent their clothes, and ran in among the people crying out. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So, as you can see, apostledoesnot mean 'one of the Twelve'. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please, learn the myths you are trying to sell us. Yourgod >>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> embarrassed by your ignorance if he existed.- Hide quoted >>>>>>>>>>>>>> text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, yes itdoesmean ?one of the Twelve. >>>>>>>>>>>> Then you clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Go waste >>>>>>>>>>>> some >>>>>>>>>>>> time reading the Gospels, Acts and letters to find out that _no >>>>>>>>>>>> one_ >>>>>>>>>>>> thought that Paul was one of the Twelve.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> Well, Paul thought he was. I don't think he would have gone around >>>>>>>>>>> lying about it. >>>>>>>>>> You are lying about what Paul said. He never claimed to be one of the >>>>>>>>>> Twelve.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> He said he was an apostle. He would not have said that if he had not >>>>>>>>> been ordained. >>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>> I am an apostle. >>>>>>>> Al- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>> So who ordained you an apostle? >>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>> You did. >>>>>> You said that people who say they are an apostle are an ordained apostle, >>>>>> and that they wouldn't say they were an apostle unless they were an apostle. >>>>>> It's right up there, in the text. >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Steve O >>>>> Paul was ordained an apostle. Al was not. >>>> I ordain Al as an apostle. >>>> -- >>> You would have to be an apostle to ordain an apostle. >> I've already been ordained an apostle. >> > So who ordained you an apostle? God. -- **************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *--------------------------------------------------* * Can God create a Thai dish so spicy that even He * * can't eat it? * ****************************************************
From: DanielSan on 2 Aug 2008 02:57 rbwinn wrote: > On Aug 1, 8:29�am, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 31, 8:56 pm, DanielSan <daniel...(a)speakeasy.net> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>> Why don't we just wait for him before judging them then? >>>>>>>> I happen to think that if anyone needs judging it is the liars and >>>>>>>> hypocrites. But you don't see me campaigning to remove their human >>>>>>>> rights. >>>>>>> Well, yes, I do. Like other atheists you campaign for abortion, >>>>>>> which removes the right to live of the people who are killed. >>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>> Please show me evidence that I've campaigned for abortion. Because >>>>>> that's a flat out lie. And is that your best effort at demonising >>>>>> atheists? >>>>>> Al- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> Atheists have caused more abortions than any other group of people. >>>> So, you can't show evidence where atheists (like Al) have campaigned for >>>> abortion. You have lied. >>>> -- >>> Josef Stalin was an atheist like Al. �While Josef Stalin was dictator >>> of the Soviet Union, the number of abortions in Russia increased to >>> about five per woman. >>> In the People's Republic of China, women who have had one child are >>> required by the state to abort any children conceived after the first >>> child is born. >> So, you have lied. > > No, I did not lie. You said that Al campaigned for abortion. Are you going to provide evidence for this? -- **************************************************** * DanielSan -- alt.atheism #2226 * *--------------------------------------------------* * Can God create a Thai dish so spicy that even He * * can't eat it? * ****************************************************
From: rbwinn on 2 Aug 2008 03:07
On Aug 1, 2:03�pm, Matthew Johnson <matthew_mem...(a)newsguy.org> wrote: > In article <kir6949o6ultktihc9isa7vimf11k3h...(a)4ax.com>, Stan-O says... > > [snip] > > >Don't try to figure it out. Robert's brain is one non-sequitor after > >another... > > Your own posts meet that description, too. After all: you are completely off > topic for sci.physics, cam.misc and alt.sci.physics. You are on topic only for > alt.atheism. > > And the term is "non sequitur", not "non sequitor"! If you can't spell Latin, > stop trying to impress the masses with Latin phrases you don't understand > yourself. It doesn't work! > > And why are you cross posting to so many groups? Even if Robert posts to > sci.physics, you don't have to answer him here, you can refer him to your answer > in alt.atheism. Well, so let's talk about Einstein's theory of relativity, Matthew. I think that the Lorentz equations are the incorrect equations for what Einstein said he was trying to do, which was to describe the transmission of light. Robert B. Winn |