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From: ZnU on 10 Aug 2010 18:15
In article
<d7b70e08-a35e-4a45-b1f6-fa9a66e8fac1(a)y11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
ed <news(a)atwistedweb.com> wrote:

> On Aug 10, 9:32�am, ZnU <z...(a)fake.invalid> wrote:
> > �ed <n...(a)atwistedweb.com> wrote:
> > > On Aug 10, 2:29�am, Sandman <m...(a)sandman.net> wrote:
> > > > On 2010-08-10 08:28:06 +0200, ZnU said:
> > > > > I also have a 3G iPad and haven't activated service yet; when I'm in
> > > > > my
> > > > > usual routine, I have WiFi 99% of the time I'd want Internet access
> > > > > on
> > > > > the iPad. But if I'm going out of town or I'm on-set for a couple of
> > > > > weeks (we do video production work), _then_ it becomes really useful.
> > > > > That's why the fact that the plans are month-to-month is so nice.
> >
> > > > I just think your (as in, all you americans, not you specifically)
> > > > cellular plans are fucked up. I pay $80/month (VAT included) for
> > > > flatrate data and flatrate calls for my plan and twin card that share
> > > > the same flatrate data plan is included in the price, and I just went
> > > > to my providers home page and clicked "order micro-sim" and it was
> > > > posted to me free of charge as my twin card.
> >
> > > unlimited (voice, data, txt) plans in the u.s. currently start in the
> > > $45-$50 range.
> >
> > MetroPCS has plans in that range, but 1) they only have coverage in
> > major cities and 2) they're on CDMA, which limits device choice.
>
> boost, cricket, and virgin were the ones i was thinking, but yeah,
> metro as well (and they bring it down to as low as $40). and sure,
> your devices are somewhat limited, but that'd be the case if they were
> gsm too, so i'm not sure what the specific complaint is- it's like
> saying being on sprint or verizon (or att or tmobile) limits device
> choices, right? it's a case of, 'yeah, but?'

Sandman was comparing the situation in the US to the situation in other
countries. Many other countries _don't_ have three incompatible
standards limiting handset choice and portability.

> > > on att, the ipad data plans were $30 unlimited when they existed ($25
> > > for 2 gigs now); no shared extra-card plans, but unlimited data plans
> > > on other carriers start at about $40 (though i don't think anyone
> > > else has a micro sim at this point). �so you're not really talking
> > > about a whole lot of difference in cost when it comes to the actual
> > > plans themselves.
> >
> > Except that an AT&T smartphone plan with 2 GB of data and unlimited
> > talk/text is going to be on the order of $115.
>
> um, ok. that doesn't mean you can't get less expensive service. we
> know att (and verizon) are expensive. point is, it CAN be comparable
> (maybe even cheaper- can sandman get a 1 device unlimited plan in the
> $40-$50 range?).

There's nothing remotely comparable to what he was describing without
spending quite a lot more. And _still_ getting capped data.

More generally, your response seems to be "Yeah, well we have low-end
plans cheaper than Sweden's high-end plans". This is silly. You don't
know what their low-end plans look like.

> > And I bet Sandman's plan supports tethering -- add another $20.
> > Plus Sandman's plan works with multiple devices, so add another $25
> > for the iPad plan. Basically, to get an iPhone + iPad + tethered
> > laptop online via AT&T will cost you $160/month. Plus probably,
> > with a plan that expensive, another $20 in taxes and fees. And
> > you're _still_ limited to 2 GB of data for the phone and laptop and
> > a separate 2 GB for the iPad before you start paying overages.
>
> yeah, att sucks. :D i'm not sure what sort of taxes and fees you're
> paying, but i don't pay anywhere near that in taxes (even if you scale
> up the cost of my plan- i pay $5 and change for 2 lines, out the door
> for $110).

Maybe it varies by state, but around here you're look at $10/line or
thereabouts.

> > Sprint is a _little_ cheaper, but not that much. They have an unlimited
> > tax/text/data plan for $99 -- but tethering is an extra $30, and if you
> > wanted to add a second data-only device like an iPad (not that the iPad
> > works, because Sprint is CDMA) there's no reasonable way to do that --
> > you'd have to get a whole separate data-only plan for $60/month for 5 GB.
> >
> > So Sprint ends of actually being $190/month -- well over $200 with taxes
> > and fees.
>
> sprint, in reality, for most people, is (or can be) a *lot* cheaper.
> they have a whole slew of discounts just about anyone can qualify for,

Where?

> and for many, paying for unlimited minutes doesn't make much sense
> with their free mobile-to-mobile on any carrier. on my 2 lines, my
> anytime minute usage went down from 2000+ minutes to less than 200
> minutes per month when they switched to free mobile-to-mobile on any
> network. :D

That's your particular usage; assuming you still need more than 450
minutes of calls to/from non-cellphones (e.g. an average of 15 minutes a
day -- not a lot), going with "Everything Data - with Any Mobile,
Anytime" rather than "Simply Everything" saves you all of $10/month.

> and the thing about having a different and plan is you don't have to
> couple them- go ahead and use the att ipad plan. :D
>
> > So basically, prices are _twice_ as high in the US,
>
> the prices _can_be_ twice as high. i'm not sure why you're just
> poopooing away the cheaper options. it's like you're looking for an
> excuse to make u.s. plans look more expensive than they have to be.

I'm looking for plans that are comparable to what Sandman mentioned --
and what I, personally, would jump at if it were actually available in
this country and compatible with the devices I want.

> > _and_ you still get
> > less (capped data),
>
> sure, with att.

With Sprint as well, for tethering and data-only plans. Sprint will
basically only give you uncapped data to a handset, because they know
it's really hard to actually use it there.

> > _and_ you have to navigate around the fact that
> > there are three different incompatible standards here (AT&T's GSM on
> > normal frequencies, T-Mobile's GSM on quirky frequencies, and Sprint and
> > Version on CDMA.)
>
> and?

And it sucks.

> > I would say "fucked up" is, in fact, a pretty good description of
> > the US cellular market.
>
> the plans are getting cheaper, for more services () and there's tons
> of competition- i recall about 3 or 4 years ago you were talking
> about not unlimited minutes, with unlimited modem speed data for
> something like $200. now you can get unlimited minutes, sms/mms,
> data, navigation, etc, for like $45. seriously, $45. what more do
> you really want? :D

Forgive me for not being astoundingly impressed that a high-tech market
actually makes a bit of progress from year to year. Things are still far
worse here than in many other countries.

And honestly, if you exclude the bargain basement providers like Boost
and stick to the Big Four, there's not really all that _much_ progress.
Some high-end plans are cheaper. But... before switching to AT&T for the
iPhone in 2007, I was with T-Mobile since about 2002. At that time I was
paying $40/month for 600 minutes, no data and no included messaging.

Know what you $40/month gets you from T-Mobile today, if you want a
subsidized phone (which I got in 2002)? 500 minutes, no data and no
included messaging. Plus, the per-message SMS fees are twice what they
used to be and you now have to sign a _two_ year contract rather than a
one year contract.

It's really sort of shameful. The Big Four run the industry like a
cartel. When one decided to raise non-plan text messaging fees, the
others followed along. When one decided to double standard contract
lengths, the others followed along. Now the same thing seems to be
happening with the move away from unlimited data plans. Why is there not
a price fixing investigation going on here?

--
"The game of professional investment is intolerably boring and over-exacting to
anyone who is entirely exempt from the gambling instinct; whilst he who has it
must pay to this propensity the appropriate toll." -- John Maynard Keynes
From: Todd Allcock on 10 Aug 2010 18:54
At 10 Aug 2010 08:19:38 -0700 John Navas wrote:
> On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 09:40:02 -0400, in
> <g5d8o.4362$EF1.2031(a)newsfe14.iad>, Todd Allcock
> <elecconnec(a)AnoOspamL.com> wrote:
>
> >... (Keep in
> >mind pre-iPhone, no one in the US had tied mandatory data plans to
phone
> >sales. Even Blackberries- essentially worthless without ubiquitous
data-
> >didn't require data plans yet!)
>
> I seem to recall that AT&T required a higher cost "smartphone" plan for
> Blackberries and other smartphones.
>


Yes, _if_ you purchased data. There was no mandatory data add-on,
however, so users could opt to use their smartphone on WiFi only, or as
an 'unconnected' PDA with integrated phone.


AT&T started a trend with the iPhone that now makes mandatory data plans
a de facto standard on all carriers. Verizon has even expanded it to
certain dumbphones, requiring a $10/month data plan on select feature
phones.


From: ed on 10 Aug 2010 19:10
On Aug 10, 3:15 pm, ZnU <z...(a)fake.invalid> wrote:
>  ed <n...(a)atwistedweb.com> wrote:
> > On Aug 10, 9:32 am, ZnU <z...(a)fake.invalid> wrote:
<snip>
> > > Except that an AT&T smartphone plan with 2 GB of data and unlimited
> > > talk/text is going to be on the order of $115.
>
> > um, ok.  that doesn't mean you can't get less expensive service.  we
> > know att (and verizon) are expensive.  point is, it CAN be comparable
> > (maybe even cheaper- can sandman get a 1 device unlimited plan in the
> > $40-$50 range?).
>
> There's nothing remotely comparable to what he was describing without
> spending quite a lot more. And _still_ getting capped data.
> More generally, your response seems to be "Yeah, well we have low-end
> plans cheaper than Sweden's high-end plans". This is silly. You don't
> know what their low-end plans look like.

- an unlimited voice, text, and data plan is low end to you because
it's limited to one device?
- and you might be talking capped data, but i'm not
- no, i don't know what sweden's low end plans look like, but i'm not
talking about low end plans. i am *asking* what an unlimited one
device plan looks like though.

<snip>
> > > Sprint is a _little_ cheaper, but not that much. They have an unlimited
> > > tax/text/data plan for $99 -- but tethering is an extra $30, and if you
> > > wanted to add a second data-only device like an iPad (not that the iPad
> > > works, because Sprint is CDMA) there's no reasonable way to do that --
> > > you'd have to get a whole separate data-only plan for $60/month for 5 GB.
>
> > > So Sprint ends of actually being $190/month -- well over $200 with taxes
> > > and fees.
>
> > sprint, in reality, for most people, is (or can be) a *lot* cheaper.
> > they have a whole slew of discounts just about anyone can qualify for,
>
> Where?

the ridiculously good discounts are typically employer based- and if
you don't care that you don't actually work somewhere, many of them
don't actually verify (i'm not sure i have a problem with that, but i
go with a 'legit' discount for myself even though i could get a higher
discount):
http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1757688
people working for larger companies can check directly:
http://delivery.sprint.com/m/p/nxt/ais/wdyw.asp?id16=iSearch_MA_071609_EmployeeDiscounts&id16=Corporate+discount
(my company isn't listed in the above list, but i have a 20% discount)

if somebody doesn't qualify on any of those programs, join a credit
union and save at *least* 10% (there are some credit unions with much
higher savings)
http://www.cusaver.com/

but there are lots of deals out there on sprint... my university has
(at least had) a student / alumni discount, and, for example, RI /
worcester students / alumni / employees get a 23% discount:
http://www.studentrate.com/studentrate/suffolk/get-suffolk-student-deals/Sprint-Student-Rate-Member-Discount--/0

> > and for many, paying for unlimited minutes doesn't make much sense
> > with their free mobile-to-mobile on any carrier. on my 2 lines, my
> > anytime minute usage went down from 2000+ minutes to less than 200
> > minutes per month when they switched to free mobile-to-mobile on any
> > network.  :D
>
> That's your particular usage; assuming you still need more than 450
> minutes of calls to/from non-cellphones (e.g. an average of 15 minutes a
> day -- not a lot),

yes, i didn't say for everyone. i said for many. and these days,
that IS getting to be a bit- people are getting used to calling an
'always' available number- these days, 15% of homes have a land line
and no cell, vs 25% with a cell and no land line.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37109826

> going with "Everything Data - with Any Mobile,
> Anytime" rather than "Simply Everything" saves you all of $10/month.
> > and the thing about having a different and plan is you don't have to
> > couple them- go ahead and use the att ipad plan.  :D
>
> > > So basically, prices are _twice_ as high in the US,
>
> > the prices _can_be_ twice as high.  i'm not sure why you're just
> > poopooing away the cheaper options.  it's like you're looking for an
> > excuse to make u.s. plans look more expensive than they have to be.
>
> I'm looking for plans that are comparable to what Sandman mentioned --
> and what I, personally, would jump at if it were actually available in
> this country and compatible with the devices I want.

ok. sweden undoubtedly has good plans- some of the cheapest in the
world if i recall- but you can get something in the ballpark in the
u.s. - not identical (nobody is claiming that), but in the ballpark.

> > >  _and_ you still get
> > > less (capped data),
>
> > sure, with att.
>
> With Sprint as well, for tethering and data-only plans. Sprint will
> basically only give you uncapped data to a handset, because they know
> it's really hard to actually use it there.

not really. ;D sprint doesn't actually care if you tether-
blackberries come with the tether app installed (and functioning) for
example, unlike on att and verizon.

> > >  _and_ you have to navigate around the fact that
> > > there are three different incompatible standards here (AT&T's GSM on
> > > normal frequencies, T-Mobile's GSM on quirky frequencies, and Sprint and
> > > Version on CDMA.)
>
> > and?
>
> And it sucks.

it sucks if you're trying to switch from one to the other all the
time. otherwise, when's it really matter?

> > > I would say "fucked up" is, in fact, a pretty good description of
> > > the US cellular market.
>
> > the plans are getting cheaper, for more services () and there's tons
> > of competition- i recall about 3 or 4 years ago you were talking
> > about not unlimited minutes, with unlimited modem speed data for
> > something like $200.  now you can get unlimited minutes, sms/mms,
> > data, navigation, etc, for like $45.  seriously, $45.  what more do
> > you really want?  :D
>
> Forgive me for not being astoundingly impressed that a high-tech market
> actually makes a bit of progress from year to year. Things are still far
> worse here than in many other countries.

eh. things vary in quality and price around the world- even
absolutely identical things. that doesn't bother me *at all* if i'm
happy with what i'm getting here, and i'm very happy with unlimited
voice, text, mms, data, and long distance for a pittance. 10 years
ago i was spending that on basic service on a land line, with super
pricey long distance. :D but your mileage obviously varies.

> And honestly, if you exclude the bargain basement providers like Boost
> and stick to the Big Four, there's not really all that _much_ progress.
> Some high-end plans are cheaper. But... before switching to AT&T for the
> iPhone in 2007, I was with T-Mobile since about 2002. At that time I was
> paying $40/month for 600 minutes, no data and no included messaging.
>
> Know what you $40/month gets you from T-Mobile today, if you want a
> subsidized phone (which I got in 2002)? 500 minutes, no data and no
> included messaging. Plus, the per-message SMS fees are twice what they
> used to be and you now have to sign a _two_ year contract rather than a
> one year contract.

so it seems like the no brainer if you want to go tmobile is go
prepaid for $50 month with unlimited voice and messaging. ;D

> It's really sort of shameful. The Big Four run the industry like a
> cartel. When one decided to raise non-plan text messaging fees, the
> others followed along. When one decided to double standard contract
> lengths, the others followed along. Now the same thing seems to be
> happening with the move away from unlimited data plans. Why is there not
> a price fixing investigation going on here?

you seem outraged at the pricing. i wasn't outraged, but i recognized
there were better deals to be had. which is partly why i switched
from att-verizon-sprint. happy here so far. ;D
From: Todd Allcock on 10 Aug 2010 18:57
At 10 Aug 2010 07:12:43 -0700 nospam wrote:
> In article <g5d8o.4362$EF1.2031(a)newsfe14.iad>, Todd Allcock
> <elecconnec(a)AnoOspamL.com> wrote:
>
> > (Keep in
> > mind pre-iPhone, no one in the US had tied mandatory data plans to
phone
> > sales. Even Blackberries- essentially worthless without ubiquitous
data-
> > didn't require data plans yet!)
>
> sprint did on some models,

I don't recall Sprint doing that pre-iPhone, but as Sprint is the only
"big 4" carrier I've never used, I'll accept your word absent any
statements otherwise.

> and any winmo phone had a *higher* data plan
> rate because they assumed you'd use more data.

True, but opting for no data plan at all (or pay per kb) was an option no
longer offered today.


From: Todd Allcock on 10 Aug 2010 19:08
At 10 Aug 2010 12:20:36 -0500 Dennis Ferguson wrote:

>
> Here are the numbers which are reported in Verizon's 10-Q, along
> with comparable AT&T numbers:
>
> Verizon/AT&T
> Total Adds Retail Adds Reseller Adds
> Verizon 1,351,000 454,000 897,000
> AT&T 1,562,000 1,692,000 -130,000
>
> AT&T breaks down their Retail Additions further, into postpaid
> voice lines of service, AT&T-branded prepaid service and
> "Connected Device Customers", which I believe includes things
> like alarm modems along with iPads. Those numbers are 496,000,
> 300,000 and 896,000, respectively. Verizon gives the SEC no
> similar breakout.

That's a lot of alarm modems! ;)

(Kidding aside, I believe the large bulk of "connected devices" are
Amazon Kindles, and B&N Nook eReaders, which while technically new lines
of service, are likely very low revenue.)


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