lilo removal in squeeze (or, "please test grub2")
in [Debian]
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From: Stephen Powell on 28 May 2010 13:50 >From now on I will post on this thread only to debian-user, since it appears that the debian-devel and debian-boot lists are tired of hearing about it. On Fri, 28 May 2010 12:39:00 -0400 (EDT), Roger Leigh wrote: > On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 06:11:20PM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: >> On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 10:45AM -0400, Stephen Powell wrote:: >>> Unfortunately, logical backups of a Linux machine using the extlinux >>> boot loader do not work with our backup/restore software. The master boot >>> record and partition boot sector are restored correctly, but >>> /boot/extlinux/extlinux.sys will probably not be restored to the exact >>> same sectors from which it was backed up, and the restore software has no >>> special logic to remedy that situation. Therefore, after restore, the >>> machine will not boot. It *does* recognize lilo and has special logic >>> to patch lilo after the restore so that the machine will boot. >> >> We have understood that your backup software is broken. Itâs not the >> only one. Thereâs nothing we can do to fix broken, proprietary backup >> software. > I understand that. > > One obvious solution not already mentioned is to back up the bootloader > *in Linux* as a normal file, so the backup software can then just back > it up like any other file. It's a simple enough workaround to the > deficiencies in your backup software. > > dd if=dev/hda of=/boot/bootsector-backup bs=512 count=nnn > > Stick it in as a daily cron job and you're done. When it comes to > restoring, you can just dd it back and you're in business. I think you're missing the point. Let's say that a hard drive fails on a production server. A technician, who may not be Linux literate, replaces the failed hard drive and then restores the server from the saved backup image. Upon restoring from the backup, the server will not boot. That's the problem. I can boot a rescue CD and repair the damaged boot loader, but the goal is to have the restored system boot with no subsequent intervention, just as it does for a Windows server. > >> As a personal advice, I would recommend you to stop bothering with that >> broken backup software, it doesnât seem good for your health. Set up a >> CIFS share on a backed-up Windows server, copy your data there using one >> of the numerous solutions in Debian, and get done with it. Or just state >> that you canât backup modern Linux servers with it, and let them >> struggle with Windows servers if they really decide to use this instead. > > Very true. The same software is likely also broken with GPT > partition tables, BSD partition tables etc., so it's not like it's > just grub at fault here! For the most part, grub is a vast > improvement over LILO, and except for the odd corner cases which > grub doesn't cover, grub is a much better choice if you have the > choice. We are aware of the deficiencies of our backup software and we are looking at possible alternatives. Who knows, maybe I'll even have some input into a possible replacement. (But I'm not holding my breath.) Until that happens, however, I have to live withing its restrictions. On my home computers, I can run whatever I want. But at work, I am stuck with these restrictions for now. -- .''`. Stephen Powell : :' : `. `'` `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/396446454.134310.1275068497347.JavaMail.root(a)md01.wow.synacor.com
From: Stan Hoeppner on 28 May 2010 21:30 Stephen Powell put forth on 5/28/2010 9:45 AM: > The problem can be circumvented by taking an image backup > instead of a logical backup, but that gets into special backup > requirements. Can you mix and match? Does the image backup grab the entire disk or does it work at the partition level? Can you, say, do an image backup of the MBR and boot sector and the /boot partition, and then use file backup on the rest of the disk. What backup software are you using that can take an image backup of a Linux boot disk? Does it install a local agent for this? Or are you booting from SAN? If so, you should have all kinds of backup flexibility, depending on whose storage arrays you use. -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4C006D29.7070202(a)hardwarefreak.com
From: Stan Hoeppner on 28 May 2010 22:00 Roger Leigh put forth on 5/28/2010 11:39 AM: > For the most part, grub is a vast > improvement over LILO, and except for the odd corner cases which > grub doesn't cover, In what way is it a vast improvement over LILO? I've never had a problem with LILO. It's always "just worked", which is what a bootloader should do. So how exactly would grub be a better choice for me? > grub is a much better choice if you have the > choice. What choice? Apparently the Debian team have decided there will be no bootloader choice when Squeeze becomes Stable. Supposedly at that point it's Grub2 or your system no longer boots. That's not much of a choice is it? -- Stan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4C007303.1000603(a)hardwarefreak.com
From: thib on 28 May 2010 22:50 Stan Hoeppner wrote: > In what way is it a vast improvement over LILO? I've never had a problem with > LILO. It's always "just worked", which is what a bootloader should do. So > how exactly would grub be a better choice for me? Nobody should be arguing that it's a better choice for someone who doesn't *need* it, but it's certainly modular and possibly can make itself tiny enough for people without special requirements (about the second sector, usually). Since there's few alternatives however, it should at least be considered by everyone. > [snip] > > What choice? Apparently the Debian team have decided there will be no > bootloader choice when Squeeze becomes Stable. Supposedly at that point it's > Grub2 or your system no longer boots. That's not much of a choice is it? Since lilo is/will be incompatible with Debian stock kernels, I think there's no point in providing it in a standard d-i. Now of course, we can still reasonably argue about two things: * Should it still be available and maintained in the official archive? This would mean adding big flashy debconf warnings stating that it's not compatible with a stock kernel. It's about newbies confusion and time spent maintaining an obsolete piece of software (sorry if sounds bad, but it really looks like it is, considering its development). I certainly hope it's a reasonable possibility. * If yes, should it still be presented as an "expert" option in d-i? Why not, I guess. If not, should extlinux be extensively tested to be provided as an alternative choice in d-i? I really don't know how much work would be needed for this. -thib -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4C007F92.401(a)stammed.net
From: Tom H on 29 May 2010 00:00
On Fri, May 28, 2010 at 9:50 PM, Stan Hoeppner <stan(a)hardwarefreak.com> wrote: > Roger Leigh put forth on 5/28/2010 11:39 AM: >> For the most part, grub is a vast >> improvement over LILO, and except for the odd corner cases which >> grub doesn't cover, > > In what way is it a vast improvement over LILO? I've never had a problem with > LILO. It's always "just worked", which is what a bootloader should do. So > how exactly would grub be a better choice for me? The reverse argument can be made too. Both grub1 and grub2 just work. Unless you are continually installing dual- and triple-boot this or that, you are not going to be changing you config continually no matter what bootloader you use and you will therefore not be interacting with it that much. So, except for Stephen P's case, what's the big deal? >> grub is a much better choice if you have the >> choice. > > What choice? Apparently the Debian team have decided there will be no > bootloader choice when Squeeze becomes Stable. Supposedly at that point it's > Grub2 or your system no longer boots. That's not much of a choice is it? The lilo upstream devs have given up on lilo so blaming Debian is unfair and irrational. If no DD wants to maintain lilo upstream (whether because of increasing kernel size or lack of sexiness of bootloader coding or whatever...), you can only hope that another distribution's developer decides to do so. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-REQUEST(a)lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmaster(a)lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/AANLkTimWezxHrktBEDux_UFQq0O2MMiKsDHtQQrHB_b0(a)mail.gmail.com |