Can Christian Electronic Designers Design?
in [Design]
|
From: RogerN on 12 Apr 2010 23:37 "Jon Kirwan" <jonk(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote in message news:s367s5ht4jqaqfh0bu63j4lnlcijc2qgbn(a)4ax.com... > On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 04:12:41 +1000, David Eather > <eather(a)tpg.com.au> wrote: > >><snip> >> Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord..." will enter the >> kingdom of God. > > Yes. Even the gospels say as much -- I remember a particular > story of someone who upon asking what else they should do is > told to give away all they own and join him. The person > walks away, at that. > >>It is certainly possible to replace the centrality of Christ with >>something else. > > But this, I put it to you, means _YOU_ are placing yourself > in the position of deciding. I wonder what you think may > allow you to do that? > > By the way, this changes the topic, as well. I was > addressing myself strictly to your attempt to define a > Christian. My point on that topic is that it cannot be done. > There is no single point upon which all Christians turn. > Those calling themselves Christians, anyway. It's an > impossible task. And if you decide to place yourself in the > position of being able to say (to, in effect, be in a > position to dictate what is and what is not a Christian), > then I have to again ask why you think you are in that > position? What makes you special, here? > ><snip> Jesus didn't abandon the believers: "John 14: 15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever- 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him." 22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?" 23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me. 25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid. 28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming." "John 16: 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. 12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you. " Jesus said the Holy Ghost would teach you, not the Pope, if you love him and obey his teaching. In John you see where Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, in Acts you can see and follow the believers receiving the Holy Spirit and see how Jesus' followers were able to do miracles like Jesus did, even raising the dead. These same kind of things still happen today, just like in the book of Acts. Nothing against the Pope or any others but a believer needs a personal relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the one that teaches us about Jesus. Like you know, few actually do what Jesus told us to do and I think that explains the few that reliably hear from God, and why there are so many fakes. It's just quite difficult to die to your own desires and do God's will over your own. But there are a few, I believe Illie Coroama to be one of them, that do hear from God reliably. Did you read his book I provided a link for? I doubt that someone could believe his testimony and not believe in God, but I have seen and experienced enough first hand that I have little trouble believing the claims in his book. I guess I'm saying if God could guide me when I asked for directions, God could also lead him out of then communist Romania, I turned on a road I saw in a vision, he and 2 others followed a pillar of light that only 2 of the 3 of them saw. RogerN
From: Jon Kirwan on 13 Apr 2010 01:14 On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:37:37 -0500, "RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote: >"Jon Kirwan" <jonk(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote in message >news:s367s5ht4jqaqfh0bu63j4lnlcijc2qgbn(a)4ax.com... >> On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 04:12:41 +1000, David Eather >> <eather(a)tpg.com.au> wrote: >> >>><snip> >>> Not everyone who says to me "Lord, Lord..." will enter the >>> kingdom of God. >> >> Yes. Even the gospels say as much -- I remember a particular >> story of someone who upon asking what else they should do is >> told to give away all they own and join him. The person >> walks away, at that. >> >>>It is certainly possible to replace the centrality of Christ with >>>something else. >> >> But this, I put it to you, means _YOU_ are placing yourself >> in the position of deciding. I wonder what you think may >> allow you to do that? >> >> By the way, this changes the topic, as well. I was >> addressing myself strictly to your attempt to define a >> Christian. My point on that topic is that it cannot be done. >> There is no single point upon which all Christians turn. >> Those calling themselves Christians, anyway. It's an >> impossible task. And if you decide to place yourself in the >> position of being able to say (to, in effect, be in a >> position to dictate what is and what is not a Christian), >> then I have to again ask why you think you are in that >> position? What makes you special, here? >> >><snip> > >Jesus didn't abandon the believers: I'm not so sure 'belief' has so much to do with it. Do you remember the story of the rich man who said he followed all the rules and yet Jesus told him that he still lacked in one area -- unable to cast away his wealth and follow Jesus, when asked to do so by him? He believed. Yet Jesus then went on for a bit using him as an example of just how difficult if may be for some. All must come as children may, he said. You focus too much on belief, I think. "They are known by their fruits." ><snip of scripture> >Jesus said the Holy Ghost would teach you, not the Pope, if you love him and >obey his teaching. In John you see where Jesus promised the Holy Spirit, in >Acts you can see and follow the believers receiving the Holy Spirit and see >how Jesus' followers were able to do miracles like Jesus did, even raising >the dead. These same kind of things still happen today, just like in the >book of Acts. Nothing against the Pope or any others but a believer needs a >personal relationship with Jesus and the Holy Spirit is the one that teaches >us about Jesus. There's a revolution and a word for all that. It's called Protestantism. Which only makes my point that you (nor anyone else) can identify a single element of dogma that underlies what it is to be in the set, { Christian }. No single point of common ground universally holds. >Like you know, few actually do what Jesus told us to do and I think that >explains the few that reliably hear from God, and why there are so many >fakes. It's just quite difficult to die to your own desires and do God's >will over your own. But there are a few, I believe Illie Coroama to be one >of them, that do hear from God reliably. Did you read his book I provided a >link for? I doubt that someone could believe his testimony and not believe >in God, Roger, I don't believe testimony from one much more than I would from anyone else. If a claim is ordinary, such as that it rained yesterday, I might be inclined. If extraordinary, far less so. > but I have seen and experienced enough first hand I don't even accept what _I_ experience as gospel. Far less so anything you experience and report. Too much physics and experience has left me appreciating just how often our senses are mislaid. But this isn't news. The idea of holding sensory perceptions as untrustable dates back quite a while -- well more than two millennia. The solution to the question is the scientific method. >that I have little >trouble believing the claims in his book. Your credulity isn't my problem. >I guess I'm saying if God could >guide me when I asked for directions, God could also lead him out of then >communist Romania, I turned on a road I saw in a vision, he and 2 others >followed a pillar of light that only 2 of the 3 of them saw. .... ok ... I'll leave things there. Jon
From: D from BC on 13 Apr 2010 01:23 In article <N8mdnd5liriUY1_WnZ2dnUVZ_hKdnZ2d(a)earthlink.com>, regor(a)midwest.net says... > The Bible straight out tells you that a day with God is as 1000 years, > that's not making it mean something that isn't already in the Bible. Toward > the end there is supposed to be 1000 years of peace, this could represent > the day of rest, the 7th day. So in the Biblical timeline for man there > could be 6 ea 1000 year "days" and the last 1000 years of peace. > The numbers are not big enough.. Earth/universe age is in terms of millions/billions of years.. A God that pre-ages is con artist. Genesis is just a story to shut kids up when they ask too many questions. Daddy doesn't look dumb by saying 'I dunno'. Even a dumb primitive goat herder gets to feel like a know-it-all without getting into quantum physics. -- D from BC British Columbia
From: D from BC on 13 Apr 2010 01:28 In article <8--dnYengp7n_l7WnZ2dnUVZ_uKdnZ2d(a)supernews.com>, eather(a)tpg.com.au says... > > On 13/04/2010 3:53 AM, D from BC wrote: > > In article<hbudnSD14rHQwl_WnZ2dnUVZ_jCdnZ2d(a)supernews.com>, > > eather(a)tpg.com.au says... > >> If God has made / allowed other ways for people to enter eternal life > >> that's OK with me. I made no comment on that. I only commented on what > >> made someone a Christian, which is a belief in Christ. > >> > > > > And what if people don't believe in Christ? > > Does God's mechanistic death system use illegal power like a criminal > > holding a gun to your head? > > Believe or BANG!. (Or perhaps they go to Rogers 'Hell Lite' for slightly > > evil people.) > > What happens if you don't believe in Christ/God? > > Why ask me? I already said "If God has made / allowed other ways for > people to enter eternal life that's OK with me." > > > > > Or.. Do you believe in Christ/God just in case. (That's another can of > > worms.) > > > > I already told you why I believe > > > It's ridiculous to be driven by fear and ignorance of that which shows > > no evidence. > > Christian engineers are ridiculous in acquiring unnecessary paranoia > > from Christian concepts. > > Show some evidence of that. > Anyone who is afraid to dump Christianity for fear of hell.
From: Jon Kirwan on 13 Apr 2010 01:38
On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 18:21:29 +1000, David Eather <eather(a)tpg.com.au> wrote: ><snip> >An interesting argument you make. You speak of good and evil. But if >there is no eternal life or judge of absolute morality (right and wrong) >then there are no consequences of good or evil and indeed there is no >good and evil, only what works to the advantage of survival of the >fittest. The only _requirement_ for an absolute morality comes from us wishing for them. Besides, nature provides us quite a few examples of 'moral' behavior in animals, some of these are quite hard to separate from those we humans claim to have. There are reasons for that. Moral systems have evolved as strengthening points of local stability within social units. Moral memes are mutated and then selected almost like genes are. They are negative feedbacks that linearize and stabilize against destructive or oscillatory disturbances in social systems. Societies that do not develop these, generally do not survive for long. Those that last longer will probably have a very successful set of morals, well-rounded and with many of the sharp edges worn off by application over time. >And yet even you speak in terms of good and evil. Might be simply a matter of efficient communication. Or some other reason. I use the terms more often because it avoids long explanations and most people get the point without too much effort. Jon |