Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Sam Brown on 25 Aug 2008 02:15 Yap wrote: > On Aug 24, 3:01 pm, Sam Brown <sambr...(a)bleusky.net> wrote: >> Yap wrote: >>> On Aug 24, 12:45 pm, Sam Brown <sambr...(a)bleusky.net> wrote: >>>> Smiler wrote: >>>>> Sorry, but despite your insane delusions and hollow threats, this is the >>>>> only life we have. >>>>> Unless, of course, you can show us objective evidence that there are such >>>>> things as souls, heaven, hell, gods, spirits, angels and ghosts (holy or >>>>> otherwise), apart from by quoting from your book of myths, fables, >>>>> contradictions and downright lies, the wholly babble. >>>> Once again, I'll repeat myself and say that I'm not in any way trying to >>>> change your mind about anything. First and foremost, because I know I >>>> cannot change your mind. Even you yourself cannot change your own mind. >>>> You didn't actually choose arbitrarily to be an atheist. Just as I >>>> didn't actually choose arbitrarily to be a Christian. Those choices were >>>> made for us. I am certain that you will remain just as you are at this >>>> moment for as long as you live. The only point I'm trying to make is you >>>> may not believe anything I, or any other Christian, ever tells you in >>>> this lifetime. But, there will come a time when you will believe it, and >>>> you will bow your knees before the throne of God. And, it's alright with >>>> me if you don't believe what we say, because I know that some people >>>> have not been elected by God to receive the gift of salvation. It's sad, >>>> but it's true. We may not understand why God does things that way (I >>>> know I wouldn't), but then, I'm not infinitely wise either. >>> Well, in replying to your earlier post, I have already said that you >>> are actually not that smart. >>> This world is real, we are real and live in a physical environ that we >>> can love, feel, touch and have desire. >>> Your world in the afterlife is purely something un-imaginable; >>> therefore has no meaning on human at all. >>> Do you underswtand this? >>>> It's like I'm watching a movie, and all the bad guys seem to be winning. >>>> But I'm not upset or discouraged, because I know the good guys are going >>>> to win out in the end. You see, that's because I read the book. <G> >>> Yes, hero does not die....but this is exactly what it is....made up by >>> human. >>> In actual world, you mean people do not die? >>> Your book is exactly what it was...made up by ancient human and yet a >>> sad modern person like you bought into it? >>> What's wrong with your mind (since you seem much more sensible than >>> rbwinn) ? >> All of your questions will be answered; just not now, but in the future. >> Be patient. > > Not any of us will hold our breath. > The future is for our next generation who will use their brain to > better a world for human....not for sky pixie. Is it my imagination, or is it starting to sound more and more like you're trying to convince yourself of what you say, more than convince me? One more time, let me try and make it perfectly clear to you that I am convinced that I cannot in any way, shape or form, change the way you perceive the world around you, and therefore change the way you think. And so, I know it would be a waste of time (and bandwidth) to make the attempt. The same thing holds true with you. You're not going to change my outlook on life, and the way I think. So you can save all your buzzwords like "sky pixie" and "fairy tales" and "myths" for someone else. They won't have any effect on me at all. I've heard it all before, ad infinitum, in face to face discussion groups, at church and at university. Only God can change the way anyone views the world and life. And all I'm saying to you is, He will cause you to believe everything I'm saying now, sometime in the future. I'm not trying to change anything. That change will come later. And it won't be me that causes the change. Please don't make me have to repeat this again. I think I've made it crystal clear to you by now.
From: Sam Brown on 25 Aug 2008 02:29 rbwinn wrote: > On Aug 24, 10:19�pm, Sam Brown <sambr...(a)bleusky.net> wrote: >> You can call it whatever you want to. But if you look at the facts, >> you'll see you really didn't, nor can you now, "fight" (whatever >> connotation you're ascribing to the word in the context of this >> discussion) quite a number of things about yourself that were >> predestined to occur. Such as, you had no choice in the matter of >> whether to be born or not to be born. You had no choice of whether to be >> born a male or a female. You had no choice in what part of the world you >> were born in. You had no choice in who your parents would be. You had no >> choice in who your siblings would be (if you had any brothers or >> sisters). You had no choice of which race of humanity you would be born >> to. You had no choice in what physical stature you would have, whether >> tall or short, blond, brunette, or red hair, physically attractive or >> not so physically attractive. I could keep going on and on like this all >> night long, and barely scratch the surface of naming everything that has >> gone into making you who you are right now, at this moment, that you had >> absolutely no part in choosing. >> >> But, I won't. >> >> For it's quite obvious to me that you are predestined *not* to believe >> in predestination. And I have no problem with that whatsoever. >> > > Well, the obvious mistake in what you say is that you did have the > choice of whether to be born or not. Could you explain (again, with specificity) what you mean by my having the choice of whether to be born or not?
From: Steve O on 25 Aug 2008 04:02 "Sam Brown" <sambrown(a)bleusky.net> wrote in message news:X-OdnZhukqVy0C_VnZ2dnUVZ_sLinZ2d(a)giganews.com... > Is it my imagination, or is it starting to sound more and more like > you're trying to convince yourself of what you say, more than convince > me? > > > One more time, let me try and make it perfectly clear to you that I am > convinced that I cannot in any way, shape or form, change the way you > perceive the world around you, and therefore change the way you think. > And so, I know it would be a waste of time (and bandwidth) to make the > attempt. > > The same thing holds true with you. You're not going to change my > outlook on life, and the way I think. So you can save all your buzzwords > like "sky pixie" and "fairy tales" and "myths" for someone else. They > won't have any effect on me at all. I've heard it all before, ad > infinitum, in face to face discussion groups, at church and at university. > > Only God can change the way anyone views the world and life. > And all I'm saying to you is, He will cause you to believe everything > I'm saying now, sometime in the future. I'm not trying to change > anything. That change will come later. And it won't be me that causes > the change. > > Please don't make me have to repeat this again. I think I've made it > crystal clear to you by now. The only problem we have, Sam, (and I assume by "change" - you mean the Day of Reckoning, The Second Coming, Armageddon, Rapture, whatever- correct me if I'm wrong) is that we know that you get the whole idea of this coming "change" from an ancient text written by unreliable sources. What we fail to understand is why you think all of these supernatural events are going to happen, simply on the basis of some wild ideas written by mystics a long time ago. Particularly, is there any specific reason why you choose to believe the ancient Hebrew mystics rather than others? We have asked others about it before, and the best answer they can give is simply "I just know". Can you understand why we fail to be impressed or convinced by that argument? If you really did have something concrete or tangible other than the book, I'd be the first to join you, but for now, I am simply at a loss as to why a reasonably intelligent person would believe in that kind of stuff. Seriously. It really , really puzzles me. I can understand why people like Winn can end up with the kind of beliefs they have, it's basically a mental health problem- but I don't understand why rational , thinking people believe the same thing in the face of zero evidence. This is something I have been trying to understand since I started posting in alt. atheism, and I still don't get it. I hope you don't embarrass me by claiming that this doubt is simply "God" nagging away at me, because I know that it isn't. ;-) -- Steve O a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter) B.A.A.W.A. Convicted by Earthquack Exempt from purgatory by papal indulgence
From: Yap on 25 Aug 2008 04:39 On Aug 25, 1:46 pm, Sam Brown <sambr...(a)bleusky.net> wrote: > Yap wrote: > > On Aug 24, 3:01 pm, Sam Brown <sambr...(a)bleusky.net> wrote: > >> Steve O wrote: > > >>> "Sam Brown" <sambr...(a)bleusky.net> wrote in message > >>>news:LeSdnRQYEv_5ei3VnZ2dnUVZ_oLinZ2d(a)giganews.com... > >>>> Smiler wrote: > >>>>> Sorry, but despite your insane delusions and hollow threats, this is > >>>>> the only life we have. > >>>>> Unless, of course, you can show us objective evidence that there are > >>>>> such things as souls, heaven, hell, gods, spirits, angels and ghosts > >>>>> (holy or otherwise), apart from by quoting from your book of myths, > >>>>> fables, contradictions and downright lies, the wholly babble. > >>>> Once again, I'll repeat myself and say that I'm not in any way trying to > >>>> change your mind about anything. First and foremost, because I know I > >>>> cannot change your mind. Even you yourself cannot change your own mind. > >>>> You didn't actually choose arbitrarily to be an atheist. Just as I > >>>> didn't actually choose arbitrarily to be a Christian. Those choices were > >>>> made for us. I am certain that you will remain just as you are at this > >>>> moment for as long as you live. The only point I'm trying to make is you > >>>> may not believe anything I, or any other Christian, ever tells you in > >>>> this lifetime. But, there will come a time when you will believe it, and > >>>> you will bow your knees before the throne of God. And, it's alright with > >>>> me if you don't believe what we say, because I know that some people > >>>> have not been elected by God to receive the gift of salvation. It's sad, > >>>> but it's true. We may not understand why God does things that way (I > >>>> know I wouldn't), but then, I'm not infinitely wise either. > >>>> It's like I'm watching a movie, and all the bad guys seem to be winning. > >>>> But I'm not upset or discouraged, because I know the good guys are going > >>>> to win out in the end. You see, that's because I read the book. <G> > >>> Sam, you seem quite reasonable and tolerant for a Christian. (even if > >>> you do support the idea or eternal damnation for some, you're still > >>> quite polite about it) > >>> You are right- we simply don't believe you when you say that there is a > >>> God and there is salvation. > >>> Is there any reason why we should? > >> No, there really isn't. And I know why you don't believe in it. > >> Although, if I were to explain it to you, it would appear as though I > >> were trying to "preach" to you, and maybe "convert" you. And I know > >> there's absolutely no point in me trying to do something like that. > >> So I'm not going to. We both know that would be an utter waste of time.. > > >>> (I'm sure you are advanced enough in this discussion to dismiss Pascal > >>> as irrelevant) > >> Pascal was on the right track. Perhaps if he'd lived a little while > >> longer he could have corrected his mistakes. But, we'll never know. > > > Sam, > > I think you are wrong here. > > I think what we are expecting from you is the reason why you cling > > onto the ancient fairy tales as real. We are just expecting your > > reasoning. Just some intellectual discussion, since you are a bit more > > sensible. > > Why? You've just now described it as an "ancient fairy tale". I, on the > other hand, do not consider it that way. I believe that's all that needs > to be said.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - It's just a fascinating experience to look into the minds of people in the religious world. We all can learn something. But wouldn't you describe it as ancient invention, yet attracted by modern human like you as well?
From: Yap on 25 Aug 2008 04:44
On Aug 25, 2:15 pm, Sam Brown <sambr...(a)bleusky.net> wrote: > Yap wrote: > > On Aug 24, 3:01 pm, Sam Brown <sambr...(a)bleusky.net> wrote: > >> Yap wrote: > >>> On Aug 24, 12:45 pm, Sam Brown <sambr...(a)bleusky.net> wrote: > >>>> Smiler wrote: > >>>>> Sorry, but despite your insane delusions and hollow threats, this is the > >>>>> only life we have. > >>>>> Unless, of course, you can show us objective evidence that there are such > >>>>> things as souls, heaven, hell, gods, spirits, angels and ghosts (holy or > >>>>> otherwise), apart from by quoting from your book of myths, fables, > >>>>> contradictions and downright lies, the wholly babble. > >>>> Once again, I'll repeat myself and say that I'm not in any way trying to > >>>> change your mind about anything. First and foremost, because I know I > >>>> cannot change your mind. Even you yourself cannot change your own mind. > >>>> You didn't actually choose arbitrarily to be an atheist. Just as I > >>>> didn't actually choose arbitrarily to be a Christian. Those choices were > >>>> made for us. I am certain that you will remain just as you are at this > >>>> moment for as long as you live. The only point I'm trying to make is you > >>>> may not believe anything I, or any other Christian, ever tells you in > >>>> this lifetime. But, there will come a time when you will believe it, and > >>>> you will bow your knees before the throne of God. And, it's alright with > >>>> me if you don't believe what we say, because I know that some people > >>>> have not been elected by God to receive the gift of salvation. It's sad, > >>>> but it's true. We may not understand why God does things that way (I > >>>> know I wouldn't), but then, I'm not infinitely wise either. > >>> Well, in replying to your earlier post, I have already said that you > >>> are actually not that smart. > >>> This world is real, we are real and live in a physical environ that we > >>> can love, feel, touch and have desire. > >>> Your world in the afterlife is purely something un-imaginable; > >>> therefore has no meaning on human at all. > >>> Do you underswtand this? > >>>> It's like I'm watching a movie, and all the bad guys seem to be winning. > >>>> But I'm not upset or discouraged, because I know the good guys are going > >>>> to win out in the end. You see, that's because I read the book. <G> > >>> Yes, hero does not die....but this is exactly what it is....made up by > >>> human. > >>> In actual world, you mean people do not die? > >>> Your book is exactly what it was...made up by ancient human and yet a > >>> sad modern person like you bought into it? > >>> What's wrong with your mind (since you seem much more sensible than > >>> rbwinn) ? > >> All of your questions will be answered; just not now, but in the future. > >> Be patient. > > > Not any of us will hold our breath. > > The future is for our next generation who will use their brain to > > better a world for human....not for sky pixie. > > Is it my imagination, or is it starting to sound more and more like > you're trying to convince yourself of what you say, more than convince > me? > > One more time, let me try and make it perfectly clear to you that I am > convinced that I cannot in any way, shape or form, change the way you > perceive the world around you, and therefore change the way you think. > And so, I know it would be a waste of time (and bandwidth) to make the > attempt. > > The same thing holds true with you. You're not going to change my > outlook on life, and the way I think. So you can save all your buzzwords > like "sky pixie" and "fairy tales" and "myths" for someone else. They > won't have any effect on me at all. I've heard it all before, ad > infinitum, in face to face discussion groups, at church and at university.. > > Only God can change the way anyone views the world and life. > And all I'm saying to you is, He will cause you to believe everything > I'm saying now, sometime in the future. I'm not trying to change > anything. That change will come later. And it won't be me that causes > the change. > > Please don't make me have to repeat this again. I think I've made it > crystal clear to you by now.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Yes, but the central point is that there is no god to begin with. |