Free will
in [Lisp]
|
From: Leandro Rios on 19 May 2010 13:19 Raffael Cavallaro <raffaelcavallaro(a)pas.despam.s.il.vous.plait.mac.com> writes: > That drugs can influence mental processes is not news, but one > generally doesn't subjectively feel the same under the influence of > drugs - i.e., one generally knows one has been drugged or taken > drugs. The whole point of the magnet experiment is that the subjects > continued to feel that their choices were just as free as without the > magnets, even though their choices were clearly distorted by a very > strong influence. Where can I read about these mind-bending magnets? I can't find the original reference in the thread if it exists. Thanks, Leandro
From: Raffael Cavallaro on 19 May 2010 14:04 On 2010-05-19 13:19:13 -0400, Leandro Rios said: > Where can I read about these mind-bending magnets? I can't find the > original reference in the thread if it exists. <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will> warmest regards, Ralph -- Raffael Cavallaro
From: Bob Felts on 19 May 2010 14:17 Raffael Cavallaro <raffaelcavallaro(a)pas.despam.s.il.vous.plait.mac.com> wrote: > On 2010-05-18 20:11:03 -0400, Bob Felts said: > > > Not necessarily. We may be completely subject to the rules of physics > > but, as in Pascal's example, the "creator" can change the software > > outside of the laws of physics. > > Either way, it's extra physical causation. As a matter of historical > fact, the soul or will has usually been held to be this extra-physical > cause. But that's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not the will is free. In this scenario, the question becomes "are there times when God interferes with this extra-physical 'stuff'"? In either a naturalistic or theistic worldview, the question is whether there are choices that are determined by something other than the "self". Not influenced by, or coerced by (as Ron correctly argues), but determined by. The problem with the neuroscience you're citing is that the "self" isn't defined. Is the subconscious twitch of a finger truly a choice made by the self, or is it just a reflex action? Tap the right spot on my knee and it moves. Does that mean I don't have free will?
From: Bob Felts on 19 May 2010 14:22 Raffael Cavallaro <raffaelcavallaro(a)pas.despam.s.il.vous.plait.mac.com> wrote: > On 2010-05-19 13:19:13 -0400, Leandro Rios said: > > > Where can I read about these mind-bending magnets? I can't find the > > original reference in the thread if it exists. > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroscience_of_free_will> > See also, http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=10/03/30/1741224
From: Raffael Cavallaro on 19 May 2010 16:18
On 2010-05-19 14:17:30 -0400, Bob Felts said: > But that's irrelevant to the discussion of whether or not the will is > free. In this scenario, the question becomes "are there times when God > interferes with this extra-physical 'stuff'"? In the traditional view (e.g., Roman Catholic doctrine), God, being omnicscient, *knows* what you will choose, but not because he interferes and causes you to choose one way or the other; neither does he create you as a purely caused thing. Rather, doctrine holds, in the dualist manner I've outlined before, that you have a soul/will/mind which is a causal agent outside of physics. Your choice is believed in this view to be free; when presented with two or more physically possible choices the mechanism of your choice is a non-physical cause, i.e., your soul/will/mind. God is believed to know what you will choose only because he knows the future (existing as he does outside of time, convenient that!), not because he either creates you as a purely deterministically caused entity (like, say a rock rolling down hill), nor because he interferes and causes you to choose one way or the other. > > In either a naturalistic or theistic worldview, the question is whether > there are choices that are determined by something other than the > "self". Not influenced by, or coerced by (as Ron correctly argues), but > determined by. To pick this nit, going from 60-40 to 20-80, or from 2/3 to 1/6 is not determined absolutely, but it is such a large swing that it brings into question the degree of real freedom operating here. > The problem with the neuroscience you're citing is that > the "self" isn't defined. Is the subconscious twitch of a finger truly > a choice made by the self, or is it just a reflex action? It's definitely not a reflex action; true reflexes don't involve the brain at all - they are a nervous system arc from the periphery (e.g., patellar reflex) to the spine, back out to the periphery. What you may mean is "are these button presses automatic, unthinking actions?" The answer to this is also no; we know that planning and choice involves the frontal lobes, and in various experiments we can distinguish between automatic, reflexive actions on the one hand, and what are subjectively felt to be real choices or decisions on the other; choices involve the frontal cortex. Significantly, in the magnet experiment I've been alluding to, the transcranial magnetic stimulation was of the left frontal cortex. The effect was not seen with magnetic fields applied to the occipital cortex. > Tap the right > spot on my knee and it moves. Does that mean I don't have free will? warmest regards, Ralph -- Raffael Cavallaro |