Vulcan .Net and VO 2.8 - yeah right....
in [Visual Objects]
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From: Will Chapman on 28 Sep 2006 12:55 mullet wrote: > I think what is more interesting is that a high percentage of the messages > on this group have very little technical content. Mostly they contain > accusations and name calling, calling people "evil". Just look at the number > of messages in the "Vulcan .net and VO 2.8" and the "Vulcan .net and VO > 2.8 - yeah right...." threads related to the messages with actual useful > content. > I couldn't agree more. Its sad and, to some extent, both sides are too blame. As I said in my previous post, I really can't understand why a certain section keep on repeating the same old complaints and on the other the pro-Grafx side can't resist responding. I myself try resist joining in but sometimes the statements that are made are just so outrageously inaccurate that I feel I would be at fault not to make my point of view as well. Like I said, very sad. And, as you say, rarely of any technical value what-so-ever. Only the ng's participants can stop it by showing restraint in what they post and what they reply to. Anyone that cares about this ng .... including me....should learn to button their lip. Cheers.. Will Chapman
From: Joe Curran on 28 Sep 2006 13:10 Marshall: I agree that a wider user base brings more 3rd-party solutions. And possibly a wider customer base. Which could be a good reason to switch. If you're a Volvo mechanic in rural Texas, you're better off moving to Ford even it means losing your few loyal Volvo customers. That's business. To me the disturbing trend in this forum is the undue criticism of Grafx, which centers on the 1) the shrinking VO community, 2) the price/benefit of VOPS and 3) the pace of software development. 1. Can't blame Brian for the small VO user base. Seems to me CA screwed things up ten years ago when it's pathetic first VO version sent all the Clipperheads scurrying elsewhere. And now there's Microsoft with C#. If you're traveling the country in your fine old Volvo, don't blame the company because you can't find parts in every little town. 2. Grafx's business model is Grafx's business. If you (and I don't mean you personally, Marshall) cannot scrape up $1,000 a year for someone to maintain the development platform that keeps YOU in business, then I question YOUR business model. 3. To all critics of Grafx's development pace, I ask: How many of YOUR customers are satisified with YOUR adherence to deadlines? Hmmm? Alright, then. Instead of voting with their mouths, those who don't see a future with VO and Grafx should vote with their FEET -- and leave. Otherwise, I fear that all this name-calling will lead the Grafx team to conclude that the VO community is a collection of whining Bolsheviks who want something for nothing . . . and simply aren't worth the trouble anymore. -- Joe Curran
From: Brian on 28 Sep 2006 15:16 Paul, > E.g. Numerous times has been asked to split up VOPS in several parts > instead of making it a total package consisting of support + VO28 + Vulcan > IMO it is a bad strategy to be deaf for what your clients ("the hand that > feeds you...") think or want. Especially when they are the majority. I would agree with you.(It's bad strategy to be deaf) I can only tell you that we have NOT been deaf on this issue, and that new VOPS plans will be announced in the future that will provide varying levels of support. Some things just take time to implement. > Many people found the program too expensive (search the NG!) . GrafX > argumented that the price was justified because it included Vulcan. Again. We are listening. > Maybe, but that argument was only good for one year. Now we are 3 years > further and those who stepped into VOPS will have paid Vulcan or 2.8 three > times as much as the ones who just waited their time. And what will > happen with VOPS, when Vulcan comes available? VOPS is working very well for our Visual Object and Vulcan.NET customers. It is also working very well for GrafX. I make no apologies for it's costs.VOPS will continue to operate after Vulcan.NET is shipping. >Will the price go down? That would be the logical consequence. Probably not. > The same goes for the lack of communication. As Marshall said "literally > no news, no documentation, no learning tools of any kind". Totally > impossible to attract even one new user to such a language, and extremely > difficult to even maintain the existing user base that way. And I'm quite > convinced that this userbase went down dramatically. Many here don't want > to hear this, so be it: VO has lost many of its users the past few years. > A simple look at the stats of this NG: > Number of messages > 2003 26940 > 2004 23305 > 2005 16209 > 2006 7914 (stats only 3/4 of the year) > > Number of people > 2003 1326 > 2004 1171 > 2005 929 > 2006 577 (stats only 3/4 of the year) > So, nearly 750 people have dissappeared that were, hardly 3 years ago, > interested in VO, debating about it, asking questions and helping each > other. Where do you think they have gone? to VOPS? I don't think > so... most of the subscribers to VOPS are still active in the public NG as > well. Who wants to come here and listen to all this drivel.? I do not. This forum was once a place where we helped each other not attacked each other. It was a place for technical content, NOT political arguments based on pure speculation. IMHO, This forum has been hijacked, by a small group who verbally bully anyone who's opinions they disagree with. To me spending hours on these sort of post is not something I enjoy. Some people love it. They post 10 posts a day. It's not some kind of a game for me. I have lots of real work to do.. Surely you understand that a private forum(VOPS) that has access to all the developers is better place to come and work out problems in a calm reasonable atmosphere has advantages to this public group. I would imagine that many people just do not visit this forum based on the behavior of a small group. Here is a quote from someone in VOPS just yesterday. "I am constantly amazed and impressed by the amount of VO work shifted by Robert, and can't imagine why others are not. Big thanks to all of you for your dedication. Another HUGE advantage for me is to have this private ng, and not have to plough thru all the BS in the clcvo ng. That alone to me is almost worth the subscription!!!" In life, there are always those who see the glass as half empty, and those who see the glass as half full. The VOPS perception is that the glass is half full. > And I don't even talk about the general mood here in the NG... it used to > be a friendly place - All for VO and VO for all - but the last year it has > become a place where people are calling each other "rats, insane and evil" > ( reminds me of seeing Archie Bunker in action in "All of the family": > very funny sometimes, good laughs guaranteed, but if you think deeper > about it: it's sad and tragic ). Now *why* and *how* did it become like > that? Well... frustration about overdue delivery, over being in the cold > without any news, about the "exclusive club" and so on... oh well...it > has been said so many times here. No question, I agree with you that the mood here on the public forum is horrible. Frankly I have no control over what is posted here. I only have control of my own post, and I can assure you that I posted what I really wanted to say to some people, Archie Bunker would be blushing. There are a few people who's view differ from mine, but I'd rather chose to ignore them then to stoop to their level, and waste my days getting nothing accomplished. We can debate this until the cows come home. It's not going to resolve anything until the members of this forum start to treat each other like they would like to be treated. Some of us are un-willing "fight fire with fire". (because it only makes the fire bigger<g>) > I do not doubt for one second that you guys have been working very very > hard these past years on VO2.8 and Vulcan (and I"m grateful you did), but > something vital was missing: keeping the user base informed, and listening > to them (and not only if they opened their wallets). On the other hand, > I also realize that you are such a small team, with such a big task ahead, > and not much money. Sort of a vicious circle I'm afraid. Good luck > anyway and I'm looking forward to V2.8. Well, thanks ! All the best, Brian. PS. I really enjoyed your link to http://www.pakin.org/complaint The writing style reminds me of a certain poster name Illias.
From: rob on 28 Sep 2006 17:02 Joe, It's funny you raised these questions. Because I asked myself these same questions years ago. > 1. Have I run into something that cannot be accomplished in VO? Yes ... UNICODE ... hung around for awhile because it was promised but never delivered. > 2. Would migration help me sell more systems? Yes ... systems want to be interoperable > 3. Are my customers looking for a change? Yes all the time. If you don't improve you product then you will loose your customer. Don't know about you but I want to have the best tools possible. > 4. Would I LOSE anything by switching from VO? Yes ... outdated tools. If you don't believe me try to use five differenct OCX controls in your Visual Object application then try the same in another language (Delphe, C#, VB, ... ). Rob Joe Curran wrote: > I develop software for niche markets. Single-user and networks. > Databases as large as three million records. Have been reading this > thread with some concern over its intensity. (Perhaps that's due to > the personal stake many have in VO and in this forum.) > > A programming language is merely a business tool. > > In considering a switch to another tool, I ask myself the following > four questions: > > 1. Have I run into something that cannot be accomplished in VO? > > No. > > 2. Would migration help me sell more systems? > > No. Some of my competitors have moved to VS and, quite frankly, I > don't see what the fuss is all about. > > 3. Are my customers looking for a change? > > No. Right now they're thinking it's Tuesday and they have until 4 > to process Friday's payroll. The software? To them it doesn't > matter if it's written in VO or VB or French or Swahili. Only that > it works. > > 4. Would I LOSE anything by switching from VO? > > YES. I would lose Geoff and Paul and Ginny and Phil and Brian and > Willie and Ed and Robert and Oscar and DOZENS of others whose MASSIVE > contributions to this forum have saved me (and many others, I'm sure) > hundreds of hours over the years. Brilliant solutions and topnotch > consulting. For free. > > > Easy decision for me. > > Let's move on to another topic. > > -- Joe Curran
From: Geoff Schaller on 28 Sep 2006 18:02
Will, You are wrong on several counts. Firstly, I am hardly at the heart of all the bullshit threads because, quite simply, it takes more than one person to have a conversation. Secondly, I never, repeat never, start the such threads and thirdly, I only criticise where criticism is due and only then very rarely. You go do the math, but please go on an delude yourself as to the cause of such negative hype <g>. Others seem to be... But the important point to note is that IT community mechanisms are declining all over the world and in all IT forum hosts. This has generally got nothing to do with languages per se but is symptomatic of two import shifts: (1) the role of the small contractor is diminishing, and (2) workshops tend to gravitate to mainstream products. There are rational reasons for this, not the least of which is that enterprise IT environments are growing in size and complexity and the days in which a one-man-band to write corporate software on his own are close to over. How many people use Eiffel and why is that? It was supposed to be the perfect OO language. VO had an important connection to apps via Clipper but once the Clipper generation disappears, there is little to feed the VO stream with newcomers. So the rationalisation into workshops changes the training dynamic. Where once the contractor lapped up all measure of community support and free training resources (after hours usually), it is different when the majority of people are employees. Now the company has to support and compensate for after hours activity but the need for 'community' is lessened because the workshop offers that peer support mechanism. I've seen it very strongly in the three biggest VO workshops we have here in Oz. The VO'ers here (except for Ed <g>) don't participate in NG's and user groups because all three workshops are really pro-active in company training and peer support. Hence a decline in participation in community functions. But Microsoft has seen this and is changing the way it manages and supports user groups. IBM have already adopted a change in support for community mechanisms (I've seen that in DB2 and Rational product user groups). It's a broader movement and spells the end for niche products. Geoff |