Vulcan .Net and VO 2.8 - yeah right....
in [Visual Objects]
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From: Sherlock on 27 Sep 2006 06:26 Marshall, I hear your overall comments and I think you understand the overall problem. By the time CA finally handed VO over it was already 3-4 years behind over development languages and had probably lost 80% of the original purchase base. I think Delphi was 5 version in to VO's 2.. We are so luck VO as visionary product was years ahead of other development languages for various reasons. CA just gave a couple of point releases and hoped it would die.. but it did not. Quite a number of us have too much invested in it. Then during all this MS finally decided after a 10 year malaise to seriously update a VB strategy to a C# .NET strategy and also during those years the whole Browser/web based development market took off as well. The trouble still is.. .NET is still MS and not everybody wants to embrace what they offer. Grafx put their hand up to CA and offere a way forward and maybe unfortunately they did not have enough spare cash and developers to overcome the time lost by CA. This has made the time to market for VO2.8 seem to be an eternity. Remember these guys are trying to build the best VO ever and bring it forward many, many years in one hit. OK.. some moved on and others see there was a way forward via VOPS. Lets face it say it costs us $1000US for say 3 years this is only a pitance when you look at the overall cost of a language reaching a complete dead end and total rewrite of systems, the effect on the business and customers. VO2.8 is be released soon after the best run and fastest response and quality feedback of any of the VO betas I have been on and I have been on most. There is only weeks to VO2.8 release so how about users put in their orders and support the way forward. Phil McGuinness --
From: Ginny Caughey on 27 Sep 2006 07:33 Rene, They really aren't. Geoff has said so flatly. I do know that Graham has been involved in a rewrite of a large medical app from VO to C#, but the company that owned the VO code was sold, so it's really new work. That's not to say that C# isn't well suited for large accounting apps - I'm using C# myself for new work and have been for years now. But that also doesn't mean that I'm converting huge VO apps to C# - they're staying in VO until I can migrate them using Vulcan. I agree about what's the big fuss. C# is a great language. VO is useful for making money, especially if you own proven VO code that has been making you money for years. It doesn't have to be one or the other. I use both! And you're also right that clients don't care either way. -- Ginny "Rene J. Pajaron" <rjpajaron(a)gmail.com> wrote in message news:1159316724.685977.246830(a)m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com... > Ginny, > > My impression is that "they" are "converting" huge VO-coded accounting > system (not a simple VO scather/gather/printing sort of applications) > to C#. > > I have C#, and my VO won't matter having them here <g>. But have no > commercial commitment so far for C#. Well, clients dont care much what > language. > > So, whats the big fuss? > > Care to figure line-by-line conversion for the sake of all the insane > and "not-so-smart" VOers here, brainwashed to the max by grafx praising > "dead" VO..... > > Bringing back Lazarus.... thats VO. > > Rene > > > Ayon kay Ginny Caughey: >> Rene, >> >> > I am also considerting porting my VO code to .Net, hence Vulcan is big >> > shot for me. However, with lots of noise with VO developers moving >> > huge VO-coded accounting system to C#: >> >> Actually the noise makers aren't moving VO code to .NET at all! They are >> writing new apps in C#, which some of them like Geoff just discovered. >> <g> >> I've been writing new apps in C# for a number of years now, but I'll be >> moving my big VO apps to .NET when Vulcan is ready. >> >> Ginny >
From: Ginny Caughey on 27 Sep 2006 07:42 Marshall, If you really do believe that VO is dying, then you surely you also understand that a subscription based system for paying for maintenance is the only viable financial approach. I'm sure Grafx doesn't want to run off people who would pay for updates, but the number of them is too small and the price too low to pay for the development. Only VOPS ensures VO's future at all. But don't worry about the delay (for Vulcan I assume) being all that critical, because the existing VO code that will cause people to need Vulcan isn't dying. That code still runs businesses all over the world, and increasingly party BECAUSE those developers are already moving to .NET, the owners of that code want it to be .NET code too. -- Ginny "Marshall Rhinehart @adelphia.net>" <mrhp<remove> wrote in message news:fpmdnQ_obMWi24fYnZ2dnUVZ_o6dnZ2d(a)adelphia.com... > Robert, > > I respect your personal effort to do all that you can to make Vulcan a > reality. But I question the validity of thinking that VO is anything but > dead here. In the entire United States, I know of no new VO positions > created in the last three years. One book has been published during this > time. My "small" U.S. city once supported 50+ Clipper programmers. > > Without this news group, literally no news, no documentation, no learning > tools of any kind. Rather than giving the non VOPS some kind of update > that takes into account the delay in getting something out, complainers > are bashed and told to go away. > > Everyone knows that any one here know, has a lot of code to move. Rather > than coming up with a product, and putting a price on it, and seeing if > the market will bear it, we've been given VOPS. Blurring the line between > customer and partner may have given you a bit of a reprieve. But at the > end of the day, you guys need to deliver. As a customer, is it that > unreasonable to ask when a product will be complete? > > If that's bitching...or moaning.... or not playing along, I guess I just > don't get it. Good luck in what your trying to do. Unfortunately, if > it's not done soon, I'm not sure too many people will care. > > Marshall > > > > "Robert van der Hulst" <E-55525A53-2468-E(a)heliks.nl> wrote in message > news:198568332.20060927092536(a)heliks.nl... >> Hi Marshall, >> >>> Grafx bit the hand that fed them, not the otherway around. >> >> The problem is that the hand was not feeding GrafX at all. The hand was >> only asking for free updates. >> >> That is why GrafX decided to start another program to guarantee that >> feeding would continue: VOPS. >> >> Without that program VO would have been dead. >> >> -- >> Robert van der Hulst >> VO Development Team >> www.heliks.nl >> > >
From: Paul D B on 27 Sep 2006 08:25 Robert van der Hulst wrote: > > That is why GrafX decided to start another program to guarantee that > feeding would continue: VOPS. > > Without that program VO would have been dead. Robert (and Brian ) this is very well possible but it was clear from the very beginning (the first announcement of VOPS I mean) that this program did not suit everyone! E.g. Numerous times has been asked to split up VOPS in several parts instead of making it a total package consisting of support + VO28 + Vulcan. (I for example would have gladly stepped into it if it had been limited to the support part only). GrafX has always been deaf for what we thought about it. They just said "this is the way we want it to be, so take it or leave it". IMO it is a bad strategy to be deaf for what your clients ("the hand that feeds you...") think or want. Especially when they are the majority. Many people found the program too expensive (search the NG!) . GrafX argumented that the price was justified because it included Vulcan. Maybe, but that argument was only good for one year. Now we are 3 years further and those who stepped into VOPS will have paid Vulcan or 2.8 three times as much as the ones who just waited their time. And what will happen with VOPS, when Vulcan comes available? Will the price go down? That would be the logical consequence. The same goes for the lack of communication. As Marshall said "literally no news, no documentation, no learning tools of any kind". Totally impossible to attract even one new user to such a language, and extremely difficult to even maintain the existing user base that way. And I'm quite convinced that this userbase went down dramatically. Many here don't want to hear this, so be it: VO has lost many of its users the past few years. A simple look at the stats of this NG: Number of messages 2003 26940 2004 23305 2005 16209 2006 7914 (stats only 3/4 of the year) Number of people 2003 1326 2004 1171 2005 929 2006 577 (stats only 3/4 of the year) So, nearly 750 people have dissappeared that were, hardly 3 years ago, interested in VO, debating about it, asking questions and helping each other. Where do you think they have gone? to VOPS? I don't think so... most of the subscribers to VOPS are still active in the public NG as well. And I don't even talk about the general mood here in the NG... it used to be a friendly place - All for VO and VO for all - but the last year it has become a place where people are calling each other "rats, insane and evil" ( reminds me of seeing Archie Bunker in action in "All of the family": very funny sometimes, good laughs guaranteed, but if you think deeper about it: it's sad and tragic ). Now *why* and *how* did it become like that? Well... frustration about overdue delivery, over being in the cold without any news, about the "exclusive club" and so on... oh well...it has been said so many times here. I do not doubt for one second that you guys have been working very very hard these past years on VO2.8 and Vulcan (and I"m grateful you did), but something vital was missing: keeping the user base informed, and listening to them (and not only if they opened their wallets). On the other hand, I also realize that you are such a small team, with such a big task ahead, and not much money. Sort of a vicious circle I'm afraid. Good luck anyway and I'm looking forward to V2.8. -- Paul
From: Joe Curran on 27 Sep 2006 09:44
Geoff: > > I develop software for niche markets. Single-user and networks. > > Databases as large as three million records. > Cool. DBF still or SQL? > DBFCDX. But SQL soon. Of course, I said that LAST year. Some of my long-time customers still use the Clipper app concurrently with the VO version. (Same DBFs.) And, since guns are legal in the US and many of my loyal users are in Texas, changing too quickly could become an occupational hazard. > It's funny how evangelical types miss this fact <g>. I'm only glad I've > been able to contribute. Knuckleheads like me appreciate the wisdom of masters like you. -- Joe Curran Columbus, Ohio |