Vulcan .Net and VO 2.8 - yeah right....
in [Visual Objects]
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From: Geoff Schaller on 2 Oct 2006 17:56 Ginny, > code anyway, so they'll gradually get used to using it. I don't get the > sense that VO developers moving to Vulcan would want to avoid the .NET > Framework entirely, they just don't want to be overwhelmed with it In all seriousness I think you are wrong. The benefit of moving to Dot net IS the framework so whether it is Vulcan or C#, the learning curve is there and is required. The problem is that there will simply be as much effort and trauma moving from VO to Vulcan as there then will be moving out of VO-Vulcan to the framework with Vulcan. I exclude small and utility apps from this statement. I would say that the majority of folks who do want to use Vulcan are doing so because (a) they assume the conversion will be quick and easy, (b) they will be able to stay with VO syntax and essentially avoid the framework step. Everything I have seen in the rhetoric spun so far, including yours, leads to that possibility as a conclusion. Delay available will be delay taken. It is human nature. Of course there will be some folks who also believe Vulcan is their stepping stone to Dot Net and will put the effort in to both stages. Whether or not this is a cost effective solution is for them to decide. This is an exact parallel to the move from Clipper to VO. It was a language move and an environment move, although you could throw the OO conversion on as a third layer. This is no different. There is a language change, an environment change and an IDE change. This is not a flame war comment, this is a call to review the reality behind such moves. People will be genuinely disappointed of the hype is not met. Regards, Geoff
From: Ginny Caughey on 2 Oct 2006 19:02 Geoff, Again we disagree, but then I have the advantage of knowing what sorts of discussions Vulcan testers in VOPS are having, and they're wanting to know more about the Framework. I don't think anybody believes they can be a proficient .NET developer without becoming familiar with .NET concepts and classes, and I'm not sure why you think that would be the case. Did you feel that way yourself at some point? In any case, learning .NET was tons easier for me than learning Windows development coming from the DOS world, and I think that will be true for other VO developers too. Or do you disagree with that also? -- Ginny "Geoff Schaller" <geoff(a)xxxsoftwareobjectives.com.au> wrote in message news:45218b03$1(a)dnews.tpgi.com.au... > Ginny, > >> code anyway, so they'll gradually get used to using it. I don't get the >> sense that VO developers moving to Vulcan would want to avoid the .NET >> Framework entirely, they just don't want to be overwhelmed with it > > In all seriousness I think you are wrong. The benefit of moving to Dot net > IS the framework so whether it is Vulcan or C#, the learning curve is > there and is required. The problem is that there will simply be as much > effort and trauma moving from VO to Vulcan as there then will be moving > out of VO-Vulcan to the framework with Vulcan. I exclude small and utility > apps from this statement. > > I would say that the majority of folks who do want to use Vulcan are doing > so because (a) they assume the conversion will be quick and easy, (b) they > will be able to stay with VO syntax and essentially avoid the framework > step. Everything I have seen in the rhetoric spun so far, including yours, > leads to that possibility as a conclusion. Delay available will be delay > taken. It is human nature. > > Of course there will be some folks who also believe Vulcan is their > stepping stone to Dot Net and will put the effort in to both stages. > Whether or not this is a cost effective solution is for them to decide. > > This is an exact parallel to the move from Clipper to VO. It was a > language move and an environment move, although you could throw the OO > conversion on as a third layer. This is no different. There is a language > change, an environment change and an IDE change. This is not a flame war > comment, this is a call to review the reality behind such moves. People > will be genuinely disappointed of the hype is not met. > > Regards, > > Geoff >
From: Geoff Schaller on 2 Oct 2006 19:19 Ginny, > Again we disagree, but then I have the advantage of knowing what sorts of > discussions Vulcan testers in VOPS are having, and they're wanting to know With all due respect, the VOPS is a special group of people who are more motivated than most to assess this whole process. They would not be there otherwise. I expect those people to "do it all". They are certainly not representative of the wider (but shrinking) VO community and when you read some of the comments in the ng you get a different feel for the experience they expect. > more about the Framework. I don't think anybody believes they can be a > proficient .NET developer without becoming familiar with .NET concepts and > classes, and I'm not sure why you think that would be the case. Did you feel > that way yourself at some point? You're missing the point (again). You are expecting this of people - you and I are not normal (sorry <g>) - I do not think the wider community is expecting to have to deal with the Dot Net framework at all and Vulcan seems to promise this possibility. > In any case, learning .NET was tons easier for me than learning Windows > development coming from the DOS world, and I think that will be true for > other VO developers too. Or do you disagree with that also? Hmmm, what I disagree with is the expectation that VO'ers will have the time and desire to do that learning. There is only a small proportion of VO'ers out there who seem to want to actively engage that. We're all busy and getting busier. It gets harder and harder all the time to make these changes. You think on this: Vulcan 'promises' to get yo into Dot net without having to learn that framework. That is Vulcan's promise so why should I learn the framework if I don't need it? You know how diets work. You always start them tomorrow.... Geoff
From: Ginny Caughey on 2 Oct 2006 19:45 Hi Geoff, > You're missing the point (again). You are expecting this of people - you > and I are not normal (sorry <g>) Heh. I think I'm pretty normal most of the time. You can speak for yourself of course. <g> > these changes. You think on this: Vulcan 'promises' to get yo into Dot net > without having to learn that framework. I don't think I've heard this "promise" anywhere. What Vulcan does promise is the ability to get your VO code to .NET without the tedious rewrite that would be required in a different .NET language. I don't think anybody at Grafx would tell VO developers not to learn .NET. The reason source to the Vulcan compatiblity runtime will be included with the product is to help Vulcan developers learn .NET. This is in stark contrast to VO 1.0 when even the source to the GUI Classes was hidden so VO developers couldn't see what was going on - so they wouldn't worry their pretty little heads about such things. <g> Vulcan is not like that. That mindset is from a differnt millenium. Ginny
From: Ginny Caughey on 3 Oct 2006 08:04
Graham, > But that is my point, if you get framework code you have to understand it, > its not VO code anymore, so why try to understand it in VO/Vulcan code or > whatever you want to call it, when you might as well learn it from C# > code, where at least it is very well documented by MS and then by the > zillions of examples on the net. This really isn't hard: PRIVATE METHOD btnLoad_Click( sender AS OBJECT, e AS System.EventArgs ) AS VOID if dbf == null dbf := VulcanDB.DbfRdd{} endif isOpen := dbf:Open("c:\vo27b-1\samples\gstutor\customer.dbf", true, false) btnSkip:Enabled := true btnClear:Enabled := true btnAppend:Enabled := true btnDelete:Enabled := true btnUpdate:Enabled := true Self:Form1_Scatter() RETURN It's Vulcan code, but any VO developers can read it. I dare say most C# developers can too, but in case you can't <g>, here's the C# version: private void btnLoad_Click(object sender, EventArgs e) { if (dbf == null) dbf = new VulcanDB.DBFRdd(); isOpen = dbf.Open(@"c:\vo27b-1\samples\gstutor\customer.dbf", true, false); btnSkip.Enabled = true; btnClear.Enabled = true; btnAppend.Enabled = true; btnUpdate.Enabled = true; btnDelete.Enabled = true; this.Form1_Scatter(); } What we have here is Vulcan language using the Framework and it's no more mysterious than using Classmate or any other alternative GUI classes in VO. The form was generated using the VS form editor, and double clicking on the form brings up the code editor for writing Load (like PostInit) code. Double clicking on a button opens the editor for writing button click code. I'll go out on a limb here at state any VO developer who can't get a handle on this stuff after reading the Vulcan Getting Started docs and trying it with the VS wouldn't be able to learn C# either. Ginny |