Vulcan .Net and VO 2.8 - yeah right....
in [Visual Objects]
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From: Geoff Schaller on 1 Oct 2006 07:13 Wow. You just go from bad to worse with not the slightest hint of remorse. I shake my head in your general direction...
From: Sherlock on 1 Oct 2006 07:39 Graham snip[ When Craig posted his piece, I probably had not spoken to him in over 3 months ] He is very lucky... and should by a scratch lotto ticket.... --- snip[ so don't make out its my influence or Geoff's influence or some other person's influence that caused him to give VO the big flick ] Very hard to give VO flick if you have 2500 users of his system... it just does not work like that. I know he still cannot get rid of heaps and heaps of Clipper clients. --- snip[ Craig credit for being able to make a sensible business decision. ] His decision and anybody elses is theirs. However the reality is that once you a lot of customers around your neck dont like .."sorry cannot give you this report that report, fix this bug .. make this enhancement.. because I going to learn a new language.. try things with your code and data I have never tried before and possibly introduce new or same bugs I slowly tracked down over the last 5-8 years". --- snip[ don't recall in any conversation I've ever had with Craig where I ever suggested > he should give up using VO and move to C# ] You do via this group like twice a week to everybody.. dont you have something else to do. --- snip[ You just make too many assumptions Phil without ever checking the facts. ] My facts are sound your memory of your campaign here is well documented. --- snip[ I doubt Craig will have any problems moving his code to C#. ] Well only time and money and frustration and unhappy clients and support issues are expensive. Sure write a new program and learn all that stuff by trial and error. -- snip[ #. Even you admit the move to .Net has to come. The sooner you do it the less pain ] For some of people it has already happened and my new developers this may be an expensive exercise. For me VULCAN sees a logical direction and once this stuff is running under .NET what I use to write bits and pieces or others write bits and pieces it should fit together. Quite frankly working with PHP/VO and C# has worked well but I am concerned about staff turn over and duplicating aspects of code. With these Delphi guys I guess they will have another whole agenda and here we go again. -- snip[ Waiting for Vulcan is just not an option for many people. ] Why.. Geez .NET has been out for 6 years now for some and MS tells me it existed a few years before that. Did I read there are 360 million licensed XP machines with WIN32API .. geez you never have to move.. ever. We only bothered we C# too see what it was going to do for us and we have 2 important applications now running. One developer loves it and he was Java/C++ guy when he came abord. The other has the choice of PHP or C# and prefers PHP for faster development cycles. --- snip[ Learning another language doesn't take all that long especially C# for a VO > developer - but learning the framework does take time. ] So you have to learn this huge framework, this huge IDE Visual Studio and learn another language. For the sake of doing something interesting this is good project but seriously if I have a developer completely competant in a language I want him to make me money and the get the job out under budget. Therefore he uses what will do the job. -- snip[ I doubt there is going to be much in way of Vulcan examples. ] But you were just telling us you use half the lines of code because the framework has so much built in. Therefore the samples from say C# or VB.NET will be easier to port to Vulcan as there is less to port. -- snip[ basically there is no one left here as those figures published the other day proved. ] Sorry to disappoint you but things are very well in the VOPS. Lots of traffic and none of this public area brawling and bullshit. Very professional, quick reponses and moving forward and picking up speed. -- snip[ The ones left are inexperienced in .Net and the framework, so you can't win either way. ] Geez you learnt it so it must not be too hard ! <G> -- snip[ Phil it looks like you are going to be the last VO developer left standing in Australia ] I doubt that very much at all. Will the last VO'er in Australia please turn off the light. So how are you goining porting Medical Director to C# and how is Geoff going porting the Harvey Norman stuff to C#. It is just not going to happen in timeframe under 5 years and then some. When it works.. leave it alone or have an automated way by the manufacturer to move you forward which is in their best interests as well. -- snip[ Could get lonely at the conferences you go to.. ] I only go for the drinks !! -- snip[ Anyway you've only got a million lines to convert - probably end up at 1/2 mil when you do it in C# - piece a cake if you ever get around to getting started. ] Actually VO has been excellent for nice tight code and a reliable performer in the field and as I said unless there is an easy way to port it .. it will stay in VO. If it had to be rewritten I would probably not do it as I have some good young developers who I would start at the interface and build the business logic behind it rather than a clone of the original. If they prove C# is the way or Delphi or PHP or whatever they justify the case to budget and away we go. I think this why we are successful and making money as we are flexible and not locked into only this way to do something. Phil -----
From: Graham McKechnie on 1 Oct 2006 20:29 Phil, > Very hard to give VO flick if you have 2500 users of his system... it > just does not work like that. I know he still cannot get rid of heaps > and heaps of Clipper clients. Well it would be if you didn't have a plan. > because I going to learn a new language.. try things with > your code and data I have never tried before and possibly introduce new > or same bugs I slowly tracked down over the last 5-8 years". That is just garbage Phil. > For some of people it has already happened and my new developers this > may be an expensive exercise. For me VULCAN sees a logical direction > and once this stuff is running under .NET what I use to write bits and > pieces or others write bits and pieces it should fit together. Quite > frankly working with PHP/VO and C# has worked well but I am concerned > about staff turn over and duplicating aspects of code. With these > Delphi guys I guess they will have another whole agenda and here we go > again. Is there a point to all this fluff - Is PHP your favourite term this month? - more garbage Phil. >>and pieces it should fit together. I'm glad you added "should". Let us know when you work it out. > So how are you goining porting Medical Director to > C# Interesting point you make there. Medical Director was rewritten in less than 12 months - not 5 years, new owner, new product - not that I had anything to do with. Just shows large products can be rewritten by an accomplished programmer. >>and how is Geoff going porting the Harvey Norman stuff to C#. I wouldn't have a clue. Why don't you ask Geoff. Graham "Sherlock" <sherlock(a)sherlock.com.au> wrote in message news:1159702783.478323.120200(a)k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com... > Graham > > snip[ When Craig posted his piece, I probably had not spoken to him in > over 3 months ] > > He is very lucky... and should by a scratch lotto ticket.... > --- > snip[ so don't make out its my influence or Geoff's influence or some > other person's influence that caused him to give VO the big flick ] > > Very hard to give VO flick if you have 2500 users of his system... it > just does not work like that. I know he still cannot get rid of heaps > and heaps of Clipper clients. > --- > snip[ Craig credit for being able to make a sensible business decision. > ] > > His decision and anybody elses is theirs. However the reality is that > once you a lot of customers around your neck dont like .."sorry cannot > give you this report that report, fix this bug .. make this > enhancement.. because I going to learn a new language.. try things with > your code and data I have never tried before and possibly introduce new > or same bugs I slowly tracked down over the last 5-8 years". > --- > snip[ don't recall in any conversation I've ever had with Craig where I > ever suggested >> he should give up using VO and move to C# ] > > You do via this group like twice a week to everybody.. dont you have > something else to do. > --- > snip[ You just make too many assumptions Phil without ever checking the > facts. ] > > My facts are sound your memory of your campaign here is well > documented. > --- > snip[ I doubt Craig will have any problems moving his code to C#. ] > > Well only time and money and frustration and unhappy clients and > support issues are expensive. Sure write a new program and learn all > that stuff by trial and error. > -- > snip[ #. Even you admit the move to .Net has to come. The sooner you > do it the less pain ] > > For some of people it has already happened and my new developers this > may be an expensive exercise. For me VULCAN sees a logical direction > and once this stuff is running under .NET what I use to write bits and > pieces or others write bits and pieces it should fit together. Quite > frankly working with PHP/VO and C# has worked well but I am concerned > about staff turn over and duplicating aspects of code. With these > Delphi guys I guess they will have another whole agenda and here we go > again. > -- > snip[ Waiting for Vulcan is just not an option for many people. ] > > Why.. Geez .NET has been out for 6 years now for some and MS tells me > it existed a few years before that. Did I read there are 360 million > licensed XP machines with WIN32API .. geez you never have to move.. > ever. We only bothered we C# too see what it was going to do for us > and we have 2 important applications now running. One developer loves > it and he was Java/C++ guy when he came abord. The other has the choice > of PHP or C# and prefers PHP for faster development cycles. > --- > snip[ Learning another language doesn't take all that long especially > C# for a VO >> developer - but learning the framework does take time. ] > > So you have to learn this huge framework, this huge IDE Visual Studio > and learn another language. For the sake of doing something > interesting this is good project but seriously if I have a developer > completely competant in a language I want him to make me money and the > get the job out under budget. Therefore he uses what will do the job. > -- > snip[ I doubt there is going to be much in way of Vulcan examples. ] > > But you were just telling us you use half the lines of code because the > framework has so much built in. Therefore the samples from say C# or > VB.NET will be easier to port to Vulcan as there is less to port. > -- > snip[ basically there is no one left here as those figures published > the other day proved. ] > > Sorry to disappoint you but things are very well in the VOPS. Lots of > traffic and none of this public area brawling and bullshit. Very > professional, quick reponses and moving forward and picking up speed. > -- > snip[ The ones left are inexperienced in .Net and the framework, so you > can't win either way. ] > > Geez you learnt it so it must not be too hard ! <G> > -- > snip[ Phil it looks like you are going to be the last VO developer left > standing in Australia ] > > I doubt that very much at all. Will the last VO'er in Australia please > turn off the light. So how are you goining porting Medical Director to > C# and how is Geoff going porting the Harvey Norman stuff to C#. It is > just not going to happen in timeframe under 5 years and then some. > When it works.. leave it alone or have an automated way by the > manufacturer to move you forward which is in their best
From: Ginny Caughey on 1 Oct 2006 21:02 Hi Graham, >>But if VB 6 or VO developers want to use a compatibility library for some >>code for a while, I can see the value of that. > > That doesn't sound good for VOers bundling them into the same class as the > VBers. The VB stuff in .Net is just an excuse for the VBers. If they need > a compatability layer, I think that says something.... is that another > bandaid? Yes it's a Bandaid, but Bandaids have their uses too, especially for short-term use. > You don't really see that much VB stuff in .Net these days. Well I don't, > because if a question starts with VB .Net code I just skip it. It always > was a terrible language and I don't think its got any better with its move > to .Net, just more verbose. Just reading that stuff is enough to put any > one off. I think you know that VB isn't my favorite language either, but I do make the effort to read it occasionally if it's part of an interesting question or sample. I do draw the line at writing it though. <g> >>I see Vulcan as a way to move a lot of code quickly to .NET, then >>gradually extend that in the .NET language of my choice, refactoring as I >>am able to do so. > > Interesting choice of words - refactor. Just a fancy MS term for the other > dreaded word - "rewrite". Not really. Have you tried the refactoring tools in C# with VS 2005? I've found them really useful for naming things more descriptively, making fields into properties, and extracting methods into other classes, etc. So it's automated compiler-assisted redesign and not brute force rewriting. I'm sure I'll want to turn those types of tools onto my VO-migrated-to-.NET code once I'm able to, but as you may also remember from your VO days, the VO IDE doesn't have those sorts of refactoring tools itself so for now that has to wait. > So by your own admission, we can conclude that there will be quite a lot > of re writing going on in your code in the future. There's always an amount of rewriting going on in my VO code today - that's just part of what I have to do to keep customers all over North America happy. I don't see that changing, although I do see the tools and languages I use continuing to evolve. So I guess you are going to > use a combination of VO and C# Yes, that's the plan except it will be Vulcan and C# once Vulcan is released. It's VO and C# now and a little bit of C. - sounds like one hell of a comprimise and a > mess to maintain. Not really - just separate projects in the same VS solution. It's not as clean now without VS to keep everything rebuilt and in sync for me. Overtime it may work itself out, and the VO code will > gradually disappear. I can see where you are coming from with your > background in C# and .Net and will admit that it could be doable for you. Yes it could turn out like that. I'm surprised how much Clipper-like code I still have in there though, so it might take longer than I expect - things often do. > But I don't see how Vulcan can help any VOer who hasn't already got to > grips with the framework - they will not magically become .Net experts the > day Vulcan is released. No they won't, but they won't have to learn the entire Framework on Day One either. And the grunt work of moving the code and just getting it to compile will be automated as much as possible. > Craig's approach is also doable, just like it was for me. You just need to > plan carefully and be prepared to maintain two code bases for a certain > period. The business logic doesn't change, so it should be able to be > accomplished step by step. I'm sure Craig has thought this through carefully, and I won't try to second guess him. I just know that it can't work for me unless I hire more people, and that would cost a lot of money, assuming I could find those people. For me, the business logic changes too as different states in the US enact different regulations or as new RFPs cross my desk. It's not a static app at all and never was. Not doing anything and just waiting for Vulcan is > a sure receipe for disaster - reminds me of all the false promises about > the transition from Clipper to Windows. I'd never advocate doing nothing and just waiting. I've been trying to get VO developers interested in learning .NET for 5 years or so now. If anybody missed my earlier messages, I still recommend getting C# Express and just start working with it. Then when you're ready to migrate VO code to Vulcan, you'll have a better idea what it's all about. Get SQL Server Express too while you're at it, and try out the SQL Server Everywhere CTP. > It will be interesting to look back on how your product moves forward as > compared to how Craig's product moves forward. It would be except it might be one of those apples and oranges situations. We have different products, different staffs, and different businesses. It sounds like we both like to play golf though so we both have the right priorities. <g> > I think Craig is probably going to go through some initial pain with his > plan, but overall I think he will probably get there quicker, because he > has kicked out the garbage. Perhaps. Since that's the path he's chosen, I hope it does work well for him. I just know it's not the path that works best for me. The product will be better because every window will > have been redesigned, so the product gets improved because there is a > revision process at the same time. It's interesting that you mention redesigning forms, because much as I might want to do that myself, my users scream whenever I make the slightest change to the ones they use all the time. The small apps that I have rewritten in C# have forms that are Windows.Forms equivalents to the old Win32 ones. Strange, but true. What VOers don't take into account is how > much easier it is to design windows using modern controls or even using > third party solutions to come up with a modern interface as compared to > using the old boring stuff that VO has. I agree with you that designing forms is nice in Visual Studio. Since you haven't seen Vulcan you may not be aware that the Vulcan Visual Studio package uses the same VS tools to build the same Windows.Forms forms. It just generates Vulcan code instead of C# or VB. So you're not giving anything up there if you decide you want .NET forms. To do an
From: Geoff Schaller on 1 Oct 2006 22:18
>So how are you going porting Medical Director to C# >and how is Geoff going porting the Harvey Norman stuff to C#. This is Phil's new business model. Everyone else's. He is making wild assumptions here about things he knows absolutely nothing. He then uses that wild assumption (mostly always wrong) to draw support for his fallacious arguments. Who said MD or HN went to C# or are contemplating it? Whose business is it anyway? Certainly not Phil's. Geoff |