Can Christian Electronic Designers Design?
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From: RogerN on 29 Apr 2010 06:37 "Jon Kirwan" <jonk(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote in message news:gq0it51l6tmneb6fl2rufaacbhi14nahoa(a)4ax.com... > On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:14:56 -0500, "RogerN" > <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote: > >><snip> >>What happened Jon? >><snip> > > Just like with you, life happened and I got busy. I've got a > farm here, it's late April, etc. Still getting through all > the work and it takes a lot. I've still some land to clear, > which means pulling some stumps and chopping and stacking the > resulting wood as well as the planting part. Plus, finishing > up an important project of mine. This is a very busy moment. > I have saved and will return to your posts as soon as I get a > breather. I understand your query, it is well-placed, and > you are right to remind me about it. I really _want_ to get > a moment, sooner than later, too. It's just extra hard work > right now that goes above and beyond the usual load and sleep > impinges on what's left. You have my sincere apologies. > > Jon No apology necessary, I just thought you deserted the thread. I sold one of my idols a couple of months back that was good for stumps and clearing land, a Case 580B diesel backhoe. Since I don't have a good place to store and repair a backhoe, I thought I would be better off to rent one once in a while instead of let sit, repair, use, let sit, repair, use... I have a couple small tractors for yard (4.5 acres) maintenance, a Ford 8N and a Kubota BX 26HP with mower and front loader. I'm beginning to think of possessions as idols because they take up my time and/or money that could be better used elsewhere. I've started reading the NT again, I know Jesus emphasizes to believe and to do. I know salvation to be by faith alone but I don't think it is possible to separate true faith from works. If I believe something is safe I do it without a second thought, if I say I think something is safe but am scared to act that way, then I don't really think it's safe. RogerN
From: John Fields on 29 Apr 2010 12:53 On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 22:14:19 -0700, D from BC <myrealaddress(a)comic.com> wrote: >You don't have to pray. >Praying is an admission that you don't believe God is omniscient. >An omniscient God is fully aware of your situation and can figure out >what you'd pray. Even if you resisted praying, God would know what you'd >pray. --- Since, having given us free will, God won't know what we'll do from instant to instant, that knowledge won't be available to a totally omniscient entity. However, since God exists outside of time, He can know the _consequences_ of our actions, all the way to the end, as we walk our serpentine trails. --- >> It's pretty sad when you have to make a thread to claim superiority to >> Christians and then you have to try to attribute your own ignorance to >> Christians to make your point. --- Certainly a strange slip, I suppose, but I thought it was a fine example of hoisting oneself on one's own pitard. :-) --- >Christian engineers are ridiculous in believing in a God that is >powerless to create and pop souls directly into heaven instead of >farting around on a water planet with thinking ape meat with a >inclination to believe in other Gods or no God at all. --- Wouldn't it get boring the first way? --- >66% of the world is not Christian. --- So what? Probably over 80% of the world is theistic. --- >43% or Vancouver BC report being nonreligious. --- So what? How many of those are theistic. JF
From: Jon Kirwan on 29 Apr 2010 16:30 On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 05:37:25 -0500, "RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote: >"Jon Kirwan" <jonk(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote in message >news:gq0it51l6tmneb6fl2rufaacbhi14nahoa(a)4ax.com... >> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:14:56 -0500, "RogerN" >> <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote: >> >>><snip> >>>What happened Jon? >>><snip> >> >> Just like with you, life happened and I got busy. I've got a >> farm here, it's late April, etc. Still getting through all >> the work and it takes a lot. I've still some land to clear, >> which means pulling some stumps and chopping and stacking the >> resulting wood as well as the planting part. Plus, finishing >> up an important project of mine. This is a very busy moment. >> I have saved and will return to your posts as soon as I get a >> breather. I understand your query, it is well-placed, and >> you are right to remind me about it. I really _want_ to get >> a moment, sooner than later, too. It's just extra hard work >> right now that goes above and beyond the usual load and sleep >> impinges on what's left. You have my sincere apologies. >> >> Jon > >No apology necessary, I just thought you deserted the thread. No, but I understand why you thought so. I just wanted to assure you that when I get a moment to give you some time I will do so. (As a bit of 'penance' I'll write for a moment just now.) >I sold one of >my idols a couple of months back that was good for stumps and clearing land, >a Case 580B diesel backhoe. Since I don't have a good place to store and >repair a backhoe, I thought I would be better off to rent one once in a >while instead of let sit, repair, use, let sit, repair, use... > >I have a couple small tractors for yard (4.5 acres) maintenance, a Ford 8N >and a Kubota BX 26HP with mower and front loader. I've a JD4320 with the largest backhoe available, a near 6' plow attachment, and self-leveling front loader system (using the fork lift tongs, when I need them, is easier that way.) >I'm beginning to think of >possessions as idols because they take up my time and/or money that could be >better used elsewhere. Hehe. On the other hand, when it snows here to depths of a meter and better, it's nice to be able to clear off my quarter mile driveway so I can "get out" of here when I need to. I only need one emergency to make it worthwhile (my daughter has grand mal seizures and has broken her arm clear through both radius and ulna, received 3rd degree burns, and smashed out 6 teeth in one event, and we know that this is how she will eventually die if we aren't always prepared at all times and watch her 24/7.) It luckily is also otherwise useful during times of the year. >I've started reading the NT again That's the only place where there is anything really good. The old testament very little to recommend it. >I know Jesus emphasizes to believe and to do. I think he clearly emphasizes the _do_ part, though I admit he also addresses belief (mustard seed... move mountains), too. Almost every parable (and that is how he speaks, as old scripture says he must if he is 'the one'), pushes that _action_ point. When someone lets him know he is following all the rules and asks what else he might do, Jesus says to sell all his possessions and give away the proceeds to the poor and come follow him. ALL of that is about _action_, not belief. The beginning of that parable is about a man who is _doing_ (by following) the rules and the response by Jesus is about yet more _doing_. When he talks about "knowing ... by their fruits", he is once again talking action, not belief. The central theme that you find in Matthew (and you must also include Luke, at least, to get all of these below) is: * love your enemies * don't trumpet your righteousness * pray in private, not in public * store treasures in heaven, not earth * judge not * give to all who beg * treat others as you'd want to be treated * you can tell by their fruits * if struck on one cheek, offer the other * go out as lambs among wolves * carry no money, bag, or sandals. * take the log out of your own eye, first Note that these aren't about belief, but about how to act in life. He certainly addresses belief, too. But it is almost a side story in Matthew and Luke. There is _so_ much there about what it means to follow him, in action that yields those fruits he also talks about, by which you will _know_ a Christian when you see one. Like I've said before, the world today claims a billion Christians or more. Yet there is NO DIFFERENCE I can see between the world that Jesus found himself in, without any Christians anywhere at the time, and today. People are just as greedy, money changers are just as dangerous, and you simply can't tell a Christian from a non-Christian without a scorecard. You'd imagine that with over a billion on this planet, it might _actually_ be a better place. But as far as I can see, Christians are just as likely as non-Christians to be found in prison from felony acts, just as likely as non-Christians to be involved in divorce, just as likely as non-Christians to be asking for revenge and retaliation, just as .... well, you get the point. It is the same basic world of people that Jesus found himself in. The difference is, there were zero Christians then. Today, 1/5th of the planet is supposed to be Christian. And you MIGHT imagine that should make some difference that would be _easy_ to see. It doesn't. The same petty squabbles abound and NONE of what Jesus specifically said about the above list can be found in any more abundance in Christians than in non-Christians. I'm NOT a Christian, but I seem to follow Jesus' admonitions above a heck of a lot better than most Christians. >I know salvation to be by faith alone NOT if you actually _read_ what Jesus says!! Did you completely miss the citation I gave you? Matthew 19:21? Jesus is telling an important parable there and making a clear point to all. And that isn't the only case where that point is made. If you want a laundry list, I'll provide it. Now if you look ONLY to John, you'd be right. Maybe Peter. But John isn't the only Gospel and Peter isn't one of them, at all. You need to read the other three gospels -- especially Luke and Matthew -- to get the whole picture clearly in mind. >but >I don't think it is possible to separate true faith from works. I think that is how you reconcile _your_ interpretation that allows _belief_ only. However, a close reading of Matthew and Luke will, I believe, show you the error in that belief you have. Then you don't need to generate such apologetics to make sense of your belief. It will _all_ make complete sense without the need for that "added rule" that you just made up out of whole cloth. >If I >believe something is safe I do it without a second thought, if I say I think >something is safe but am scared to act that way, then I don't really think >it's safe. Jesus... and safe... in the same breath. Have you _ever_ read the Gospels??? I now wonder. Jon
From: RogerN on 29 Apr 2010 18:09 "Jon Kirwan" <jonk(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote in message news:v0pjt5pgqv73ibeuk2m2aapcna2ekpu59s(a)4ax.com... > On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 05:37:25 -0500, "RogerN" > <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote: > >>"Jon Kirwan" <jonk(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote in message >>news:gq0it51l6tmneb6fl2rufaacbhi14nahoa(a)4ax.com... >>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:14:56 -0500, "RogerN" >>> <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote: >>> >>>><snip> >>>>What happened Jon? >>>><snip> >>> >>> Just like with you, life happened and I got busy. I've got a >>> farm here, it's late April, etc. Still getting through all >>> the work and it takes a lot. I've still some land to clear, >>> which means pulling some stumps and chopping and stacking the >>> resulting wood as well as the planting part. Plus, finishing >>> up an important project of mine. This is a very busy moment. >>> I have saved and will return to your posts as soon as I get a >>> breather. I understand your query, it is well-placed, and >>> you are right to remind me about it. I really _want_ to get >>> a moment, sooner than later, too. It's just extra hard work >>> right now that goes above and beyond the usual load and sleep >>> impinges on what's left. You have my sincere apologies. >>> >>> Jon >> >>No apology necessary, I just thought you deserted the thread. > > No, but I understand why you thought so. I just wanted to > assure you that when I get a moment to give you some time I > will do so. (As a bit of 'penance' I'll write for a moment > just now.) > >>I sold one of >>my idols a couple of months back that was good for stumps and clearing >>land, >>a Case 580B diesel backhoe. Since I don't have a good place to store and >>repair a backhoe, I thought I would be better off to rent one once in a >>while instead of let sit, repair, use, let sit, repair, use... >> >>I have a couple small tractors for yard (4.5 acres) maintenance, a Ford 8N >>and a Kubota BX 26HP with mower and front loader. > > I've a JD4320 with the largest backhoe available, a near 6' > plow attachment, and self-leveling front loader system (using > the fork lift tongs, when I need them, is easier that way.) > >>I'm beginning to think of >>possessions as idols because they take up my time and/or money that could >>be >>better used elsewhere. > > Hehe. On the other hand, when it snows here to depths of a > meter and better, it's nice to be able to clear off my > quarter mile driveway so I can "get out" of here when I need > to. > > I only need one emergency to make it worthwhile (my daughter > has grand mal seizures and has broken her arm clear through > both radius and ulna, received 3rd degree burns, and smashed > out 6 teeth in one event, and we know that this is how she > will eventually die if we aren't always prepared at all times > and watch her 24/7.) > > It luckily is also otherwise useful during times of the year. > >>I've started reading the NT again > > That's the only place where there is anything really good. > The old testament very little to recommend it. > >>I know Jesus emphasizes to believe and to do. > > I think he clearly emphasizes the _do_ part, though I admit > he also addresses belief (mustard seed... move mountains), > too. > > Almost every parable (and that is how he speaks, as old > scripture says he must if he is 'the one'), pushes that > _action_ point. When someone lets him know he is following > all the rules and asks what else he might do, Jesus says to > sell all his possessions and give away the proceeds to the > poor and come follow him. You skipped some parts, Jesus said it was easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. Then the disciples asked who then can be saved. Jesus said for man it is impossible, for God all things are possible. Also, at least in Matthew IIRC, Jesus replied "To be perfect sell your possessions". God desires mercy, how can a merciful God only accept perfection when no human is perfect? What is the grace of God? Is in not unmerrited favor? How can favor be unmerrited if you have to earn it? > ALL of that is about _action_, not > belief. The beginning of that parable is about a man who is > _doing_ (by following) the rules and the response by Jesus is > about yet more _doing_. When he talks about "knowing ... by > their fruits", he is once again talking action, not belief. > > The central theme that you find in Matthew (and you must also > include Luke, at least, to get all of these below) is: > > * love your enemies > * don't trumpet your righteousness > * pray in private, not in public > * store treasures in heaven, not earth > * judge not > * give to all who beg > * treat others as you'd want to be treated > * you can tell by their fruits > * if struck on one cheek, offer the other > * go out as lambs among wolves > * carry no money, bag, or sandals. > * take the log out of your own eye, first > > Note that these aren't about belief, but about how to act in > life. He certainly addresses belief, too. But it is almost > a side story in Matthew and Luke. There is _so_ much there > about what it means to follow him, in action that yields > those fruits he also talks about, by which you will _know_ a > Christian when you see one. Can a person achieve those without belief? > Like I've said before, the world today claims a billion > Christians or more. Yet there is NO DIFFERENCE I can see > between the world that Jesus found himself in, without any > Christians anywhere at the time, and today. People are just > as greedy, money changers are just as dangerous, and you > simply can't tell a Christian from a non-Christian without a > scorecard. You'd imagine that with over a billion on this > planet, it might _actually_ be a better place. But as far as > I can see, Christians are just as likely as non-Christians to > be found in prison from felony acts, just as likely as > non-Christians to be involved in divorce, just as likely as > non-Christians to be asking for revenge and retaliation, just > as .... well, you get the point. > > It is the same basic world of people that Jesus found himself > in. The difference is, there were zero Christians then. > Today, 1/5th of the planet is supposed to be Christian. And > you MIGHT imagine that should make some difference that would > be _easy_ to see. It doesn't. The same petty squabbles > abound and NONE of what Jesus specifically said about the > above list can be found in any more abundance in Christians > than in non-Christians. I'm NOT a Christian, but I seem to > follow Jesus' admonitions above a heck of a lot better than > most Christians. > >>I know salvation to be by faith alone > > NOT if you actually _read_ what Jesus says!! Did you > completely miss the citation I gave you? Matthew 19:21? > Jesus is telling an important parable there and making a > clear point to all. And that isn't the only case where that > point is made. If you want a laundry list, I'll provide it. What works did the thief that was on the Cross next to Jesus, the one mocking him just a while before, what did he do that Jesus said "today" he would be with him in paradise? What was it that the theif did? Return what he stole? Sold all his possesions and gave to the poor? Ordered a Pizza for Jesus? Many on that day will say to Jesus "Lord Lord, did we not" _Do_ many great things in your name. And he will say go away, I never knew you. > Now if you look ONLY to John, you'd be right. Maybe Peter. > But John isn't the only Gospel and Peter isn't one of them, > at all. You need to read the other three gospels -- > especially Luke and Matthew -- to get the whole picture > clearly in mind. > >>but >>I don't think it is possible to separate true faith from works. > > I think that is how you reconcile _your_ interpretation that > allows _belief_ only. However, a close reading of Matthew > and Luke will, I believe, show you the error in that belief > you have. Then you don't need to generate such apologetics > to make sense of your belief. It will _all_ make complete > sense without the need for that "added rule" that you just > made up out of whole cloth. > >>If I >>believe something is safe I do it without a second thought, if I say I >>think >>something is safe but am scared to act that way, then I don't really think >>it's safe. > > Jesus... and safe... in the same breath. Have you _ever_ > read the Gospels??? Show me in the sentence that I wrote _safe_ in the name _Jesus_, yet you claim in the same breath? > I now wonder. > > Jon The example I used of believing _something_ was safe was not anything to do with Christianity being safe but everything to do with belief and action. For what I was trying to say, it would not mater if you were believing something was safe, dangerous, valuable, worthless, long, short, or anything else. I was simply trying to state that if you believe something your actions will naturally follow what you believe. I was making absolutely no claim about a belief having to do anything with Christianity. Just simply belief and action, that's all. RogerN
From: Jon Kirwan on 29 Apr 2010 18:58
On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:09:19 -0500, "RogerN" <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote: >"Jon Kirwan" <jonk(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote in message >news:v0pjt5pgqv73ibeuk2m2aapcna2ekpu59s(a)4ax.com... >> On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 05:37:25 -0500, "RogerN" >> <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote: >> >>>"Jon Kirwan" <jonk(a)infinitefactors.org> wrote in message >>>news:gq0it51l6tmneb6fl2rufaacbhi14nahoa(a)4ax.com... >>>> On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 18:14:56 -0500, "RogerN" >>>> <regor(a)midwest.net> wrote: >>>> >>>>><snip> >>>>>What happened Jon? >>>>><snip> >>>> >>>> Just like with you, life happened and I got busy. I've got a >>>> farm here, it's late April, etc. Still getting through all >>>> the work and it takes a lot. I've still some land to clear, >>>> which means pulling some stumps and chopping and stacking the >>>> resulting wood as well as the planting part. Plus, finishing >>>> up an important project of mine. This is a very busy moment. >>>> I have saved and will return to your posts as soon as I get a >>>> breather. I understand your query, it is well-placed, and >>>> you are right to remind me about it. I really _want_ to get >>>> a moment, sooner than later, too. It's just extra hard work >>>> right now that goes above and beyond the usual load and sleep >>>> impinges on what's left. You have my sincere apologies. >>>> >>>> Jon >>> >>>No apology necessary, I just thought you deserted the thread. >> >> No, but I understand why you thought so. I just wanted to >> assure you that when I get a moment to give you some time I >> will do so. (As a bit of 'penance' I'll write for a moment >> just now.) >> >>>I sold one of >>>my idols a couple of months back that was good for stumps and clearing >>>land, >>>a Case 580B diesel backhoe. Since I don't have a good place to store and >>>repair a backhoe, I thought I would be better off to rent one once in a >>>while instead of let sit, repair, use, let sit, repair, use... >>> >>>I have a couple small tractors for yard (4.5 acres) maintenance, a Ford 8N >>>and a Kubota BX 26HP with mower and front loader. >> >> I've a JD4320 with the largest backhoe available, a near 6' >> plow attachment, and self-leveling front loader system (using >> the fork lift tongs, when I need them, is easier that way.) >> >>>I'm beginning to think of >>>possessions as idols because they take up my time and/or money that could >>>be >>>better used elsewhere. >> >> Hehe. On the other hand, when it snows here to depths of a >> meter and better, it's nice to be able to clear off my >> quarter mile driveway so I can "get out" of here when I need >> to. >> >> I only need one emergency to make it worthwhile (my daughter >> has grand mal seizures and has broken her arm clear through >> both radius and ulna, received 3rd degree burns, and smashed >> out 6 teeth in one event, and we know that this is how she >> will eventually die if we aren't always prepared at all times >> and watch her 24/7.) >> >> It luckily is also otherwise useful during times of the year. >> >>>I've started reading the NT again >> >> That's the only place where there is anything really good. >> The old testament very little to recommend it. >> >>>I know Jesus emphasizes to believe and to do. >> >> I think he clearly emphasizes the _do_ part, though I admit >> he also addresses belief (mustard seed... move mountains), >> too. >> >> Almost every parable (and that is how he speaks, as old >> scripture says he must if he is 'the one'), pushes that >> _action_ point. When someone lets him know he is following >> all the rules and asks what else he might do, Jesus says to >> sell all his possessions and give away the proceeds to the >> poor and come follow him. > >You skipped some parts, Jesus said it was easier for a camel to go through >the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get to heaven. Then the >disciples asked who then can be saved. Jesus said for man it is impossible, >for God all things are possible. Also, at least in Matthew IIRC, Jesus >replied "To be perfect sell your possessions". God desires mercy, how can a >merciful God only accept perfection when no human is perfect? You really need to do some of your own translation. Another possibility would be for you to accept (embrace for a moment) the idea of using multiple _translations_ and not only one _version_. You can get a bit closer, that way. Also, don't nit pick but look at the larger picture being discussed. The message is the important thing, not some legalistic word-smith view. >What is the grace of God? How much have you studied about the Protestant reformation, its doctrine of justification, and explored your own question here? The very fact that you ask me makes me think you haven't studied, at all. By the way, there is no clear answer here. Not if you are well-read on the subject, anyway. Finally, don't read Peter so much and focus more on the gospels to get your answers. >Is in not unmerrited favor? How can favor be unmerrited if >you have to earn it? Look up Antinomianism, for a start, I suppose. You need to get out and read more and... then think. >> ALL of that is about _action_, not >> belief. The beginning of that parable is about a man who is >> _doing_ (by following) the rules and the response by Jesus is >> about yet more _doing_. When he talks about "knowing ... by >> their fruits", he is once again talking action, not belief. >> >> The central theme that you find in Matthew (and you must also >> include Luke, at least, to get all of these below) is: >> >> * love your enemies >> * don't trumpet your righteousness >> * pray in private, not in public >> * store treasures in heaven, not earth >> * judge not >> * give to all who beg >> * treat others as you'd want to be treated >> * you can tell by their fruits >> * if struck on one cheek, offer the other >> * go out as lambs among wolves >> * carry no money, bag, or sandals. >> * take the log out of your own eye, first >> >> Note that these aren't about belief, but about how to act in >> life. He certainly addresses belief, too. But it is almost >> a side story in Matthew and Luke. There is _so_ much there >> about what it means to follow him, in action that yields >> those fruits he also talks about, by which you will _know_ a >> Christian when you see one. > >Can a person achieve those without belief? Without Christian belief, yes they can. Without any belief at all? That's a different question entirely. But Christianity is NOT a requirement. >> Like I've said before, the world today claims a billion >> Christians or more. Yet there is NO DIFFERENCE I can see >> between the world that Jesus found himself in, without any >> Christians anywhere at the time, and today. People are just >> as greedy, money changers are just as dangerous, and you >> simply can't tell a Christian from a non-Christian without a >> scorecard. You'd imagine that with over a billion on this >> planet, it might _actually_ be a better place. But as far as >> I can see, Christians are just as likely as non-Christians to >> be found in prison from felony acts, just as likely as >> non-Christians to be involved in divorce, just as likely as >> non-Christians to be asking for revenge and retaliation, just >> as .... well, you get the point. >> >> It is the same basic world of people that Jesus found himself >> in. The difference is, there were zero Christians then. >> Today, 1/5th of the planet is supposed to be Christian. And >> you MIGHT imagine that should make some difference that would >> be _easy_ to see. It doesn't. The same petty squabbles >> abound and NONE of what Jesus specifically said about the >> above list can be found in any more abundance in Christians >> than in non-Christians. I'm NOT a Christian, but I seem to >> follow Jesus' admonitions above a heck of a lot better than >> most Christians. >> >>>I know salvation to be by faith alone >> >> NOT if you actually _read_ what Jesus says!! Did you >> completely miss the citation I gave you? Matthew 19:21? >> Jesus is telling an important parable there and making a >> clear point to all. And that isn't the only case where that >> point is made. If you want a laundry list, I'll provide it. > >What works did the thief that was on the Cross next to Jesus, the one >mocking him just a while before, what did he do that Jesus said "today" he >would be with him in paradise? What was it that the theif did? Return what >he stole? Sold all his possesions and gave to the poor? Ordered a Pizza >for Jesus? > >Many on that day will say to Jesus "Lord Lord, did we not" _Do_ many great >things in your name. And he will say go away, I never knew you. I didn't say to you ONLY BY WORKS. I just wanted to point out that your claim that ONLY BY BELIEF is itself a strong claim -- and unable to be demonstrated through the gospels. The issue is vastly more complex and you seem to oversimplify -- which tells me you really don't think, you just accept the authority of others telling you what to think. I'm trying to get you to engage your brain and to cease being a puppet to others. Stay close to gospel scripture about the message of Jesus. I think you will see that there is _texture_ there, not some black and white one-way-or-another-way to see things. It's not sharp edges, as you seem to have it. Personally, I think the message is actually so much better for it. You are asked to think about the parables and to consider your path carefully. Unlike the Q'ran, for example, which says "do X and do Y and do NOT use your brain to think" the gospels are considered and thoughtful and complex and ... well... important. You have a brain. Use it. There is some deep meaning in there and your 2-dimensional way of falling to one side without really GETTING THE FULL 3D PICTURE is almost offensive to message of Jesus, I'd imagine. >> Now if you look ONLY to John, you'd be right. Maybe Peter. >> But John isn't the only Gospel and Peter isn't one of them, >> at all. You need to read the other three gospels -- >> especially Luke and Matthew -- to get the whole picture >> clearly in mind. >> >>>but >>>I don't think it is possible to separate true faith from works. >> >> I think that is how you reconcile _your_ interpretation that >> allows _belief_ only. However, a close reading of Matthew >> and Luke will, I believe, show you the error in that belief >> you have. Then you don't need to generate such apologetics >> to make sense of your belief. It will _all_ make complete >> sense without the need for that "added rule" that you just >> made up out of whole cloth. >> >>>If I >>>believe something is safe I do it without a second thought, if I say I >>>think >>>something is safe but am scared to act that way, then I don't really think >>>it's safe. >> >> Jesus... and safe... in the same breath. Have you _ever_ >> read the Gospels??? > >Show me in the sentence that I wrote _safe_ in the name _Jesus_, yet you >claim in the same breath? I guess I was just imagining you were saying that you do the safe things that Jesus may ask of you, but not the ones that scare you. I think his message was one of HUGE COURAGE. It asks for unparalleled levels of courageous action of each of us. Courage is so hard to find. He was asking us to take the hard path, not the easy one. The courageous path. That is something we can all struggle for, I think. >> I now wonder. >> >> Jon > >The example I used of believing _something_ was safe was not anything to do >with Christianity being safe but everything to do with belief and action. >For what I was trying to say, it would not mater if you were believing >something was safe, dangerous, valuable, worthless, long, short, or anything >else. I was simply trying to state that if you believe something your >actions will naturally follow what you believe. I was making absolutely no >claim about a belief having to do anything with Christianity. Just simply >belief and action, that's all. You almost imagine that "IF A THEN B" -- namely, if you believe then almost by definition the fruits will result. And, I suppose, you also incorrectly imagine that this is a logical equivalence, which it is not. It is not the case that "IF B THEN ALSO A." Even accepting your first claim of if-a-then-b, it does not follow that if-b-then-a. So one can yield the fruits without believing. You need to understand that fact of life. In any case, this gets off the subject. Jesus wasn't asking for something easy of each of us. He was asking for the very hardest things -- a level of courage few of us can hope to attain, but can only struggle towards imperfectly. But struggle we should, all the same. It's my claim that if Christians _actually_ performed even poorly the theme Jesus was trying to get across in so many ways in the gospels, then the world would be FAR BETTER OFF than it is given the sheer numbers of Christians here today and NOT here 2000 years ago. But it is all the same as before, as though there were no Christians at all. Almost nary a one even dares to try and take the hard path that was asked of them. Just go over this list again: * love your enemies * don't trumpet your righteousness * pray in private, not in public * store treasures in heaven, not earth * judge not * give to all who beg * treat others as you'd want to be treated * you can tell by their fruits * if struck on one cheek, offer the other * go out as lambs among wolves * carry no money, bag, or sandals. * take the log out of your own eye, first This is the kind of courage Jesus was asking for. Seriously. And it's NOT easy. You know that. I know that. We don't need to debate it. It's a hard path to follow. But that message is deeply profound and personal. It doesn't mean some organization. It doesn't mean some rare monk or saint. It means YOU and it means ME and it means others. It is a personal message .... and a command, if you like ... to each. Jesus hoped this message would be heard and that people would make those difficult choices. And the early Christian enclaves _actually_ did it!!! Can you imagine? They actually worked HARD at this, each day and in every way. It was so exceptional and amazing that non-Christians would write about these groups who would stay during the plagues in Rome in 150 and 250 AD, for example, and tend to the sick no matter who they were. They didn't look out for their own health or welfare, they didn't just tend to themselves, they didn't run and flee like others. They took the hard path. They KNEW the message. They felt it in their bones. They KNEW what was being asked of them. Do you? Jon |