Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Alex W. on 30 Jun 2008 07:32 "BuddyThunder" <nospam(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in message news:4868894b(a)clear.net.nz... > Alex W. wrote: >> "BuddyThunder" <nospam(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in message >> news:4867eccb$1(a)clear.net.nz... >>> Alex W. wrote: >>>> "BuddyThunder" <nospam(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in message >>>> news:486737ee$1(a)clear.net.nz... >>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>> >>>>>> I know. Abortion was imported here from Europe. >>>>> I'm not European either. <shrug> >>>> Pakeha? >>> Bingo! :-) >> >> That's not a Maori word. >> Is it? > > Aye, that it is, but no-one's quite sure where it came from. In the wider > sense it just means non-Maori New Zealander. I recently discovered a > thimbleful Maori blood in my veins, but not much! The important question is: is it enough to qualify you for special government goodies?
From: rbwinn on 30 Jun 2008 09:58 On Jun 29, 9:30 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > On Jun 30, 8:19 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 29, 12:11�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > Smiler wrote: > > > > "BuddyThunder" <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in message > > > >news:4866a92b$1(a)clear.net.nz... > > > >> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>> On Jun 28, 12:19 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>> On Jun 27, 6:38 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>> On Jun 22, 12:58 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>> On Jun 21, 5:07 pm, Darrell Stec <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 4:22 pm, Darrell Stec > > > >>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 3:35 am, Darrell Stec > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 19, 8:22 am, Darrell Stec > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 3:50 pm, Darrell Stec > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 10:11?am, Darrell Stec > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 17, 2:53?am, Darrell Stec > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I analyzed the Bible. ?What I find is that God > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not want His children to die and just cease to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or to be punished forever, so He sent his Son to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcome death. ?Because of wickedness, we see today > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that most people will reject God's gift of eternal > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me ask you a question. ?Who would know more about > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LDS > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theology, one of the churches twelve apostles, or a > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hari > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Krishna monk> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Who do you think would know more about LDS theology? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Why > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you ask? Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evasion noted. ?Why are you afraid to answer a couple of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easy > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions? Why do you think I would ask? ?Could it be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer might be obvious? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if the answer is obvious, then there was no reason > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask the question. �Go ahead and say whatever you were > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say. Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you afraid to tell us whether or not one of the 12 > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apostles of the Mormon church would know more about LDS > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theology > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than an Hari Krishna monk? What are you afraid of? �I know > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer, but I don't know if you do and that is why I am > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> asking. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Later, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Darrell Stec � � �dars...(a)neo.rr.com > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, why don't you just make up your own mind about that? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have made an informed and knowledgeable opinion. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to find out what you believe (asking what you think > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unfair because you are shooting without bullets) to be the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you afraid to answer the question? �Is it because it > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never been discussed in bible school and you have nothing to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copy > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and paste? Go ask your bishop what he thinks, as you allow > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to think for you until you pull stupid things out of thin > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> air. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, why don't you ask my bishop yourself? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is his name, email address, physical address and phone > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> number and > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will ask him. �I'll also send him a list of your more insane > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> postings. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I told you athiests > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before that I was not going to be your researcher. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What research do you need to do to answer a question as to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether an > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apostle of your church's council of twelve would know more > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about LDS > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy than a Hari Krishna monk? �That is a person > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion. �Or do > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you mean that nobody told you what to think in regard to the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> question > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so you can't copy and paste it? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you want to know what I believe,I can give you name to the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missionaries as a referral , and they can tell you what I > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beleive. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you give us your opinion yourself? �Why are you > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> having so > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many problems answering an easy question? �What are you afraid > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, the General Authorities of our church have counseled us > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to avoid > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> contention with other churches. �So if you have some bone to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> pick with > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hare Kirshna church, leave me out of it. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you avoiding the question? �Why is it so difficult for > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> you to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> answer the question? �It is a simple one. �Whom do you think > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> knows more > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> about LDS theology, one of the twelve apostles making up the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> council of > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the LDS church or a Hari Krishna monk? �What are you afraid of. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Certainly there is no injunction in your church against > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> answering the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> question. �Why are you avoiding it? > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I am not avoiding it. �You said the answer is obvious, so > > > >>>>>>>>>>> obviously, > > > >>>>>>>>>>> you already know the answer. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>>> I know the answer to the question. �I do not know what YOUR answer > > > >>>>>>>>>> to the > > > >>>>>>>>>> question is because you are too afraid to answer a simple, direct > > > >>>>>>>>>> question. > > > >>>>>>>>>> Why is that? �I want to know what YOUR answer to the question is. > > > >>>>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>>> Well, just write to church headquarters in Salt Lake City and get > > > >>>>>>>>> an > > > >>>>>>>>> official answer from the church. �Anything I could tell you would > > > >>>>>>>>> only > > > >>>>>>>>> be my own opinion. > > > >>>>>>>> Anything they tell us would only be theirs.- Hide quoted text - > > > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > > >>>>>>> Well, so you are going to make up something then and attribute it to > > > >>>>>>> us. �We have seen this before. > > > >>>>>> I'm not sure where this claim comes from, can you tell me?- Hide > > > >>>>>> quoted text - > > > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > > >>>>> It came from me. > > > >>>> Maybe if you could show me where I did that? Why won't you back up > > > >>>> anything you say?- Hide quoted text - > > > > >>>> - Show quoted text - > > > >>> Well, for instance, I said that Hezekiah's tunnel exists, and you and > > > >>> other atheists claimed that I had said that London, England, does not > > > >>> exist. �I did not say a thing about London, England. �It all came from > > > >>> atheists. > > > >> No, it follows by the application of your logic. If you don't like the > > > >> results then re-think the logic. <shrug> I guess it just depends on how > > > >> consistent you want to be. > > > > > From his posts I can tell he wants to be consistently stupid, consistently > > > > disengenous, consistently untruthfull and consistently illogical. > > > > Such is the effect of religion on some. > > > > Maybe it's the only way that belief can be maintained? I would suggest > > > that faith requiring irrational thought, compartmentalisation and > > > bare-faced lies is not worth defending!- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > Well, there is the beauty of the gospel.  We do not need to defend > > the faith.  All we need to do is accept the atonement of Christ and > > keep his commandments. > > Robert B. Winn > > Well, I'd say that pretty much lends credence to that idea that faith > and critical thinking are mutually exclusive. > > Al- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Uh huh. So let's see your proof that we need to defend faith. Jesus Christ says all we need to do is follow his teachings. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 30 Jun 2008 10:04 On Jun 29, 9:57�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:42:19 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > wrote in alt.atheism: > > > > > > >On Jun 29, 8:48?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:48:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >> wrote in alt.atheism: > > >> >On Jun 29, 12:22?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> >> rbwinn wrote: > >> >> > On Jun 28, 12:50?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >> >> >> wrote in alt.atheism: > > >> >> >>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> >> >>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno..com> > >> >> >>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >> >> >>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> >> >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >> >> >>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> >> >>>>>>>> Jack wrote: > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> their > >> >> >>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. > >> >> >>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to > >> >> >>>>>>>>> believe. > >> >> >>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate > >> >> >>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. > >> >> >>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be > >> >> >>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals > >> >> >>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. > >> >> >>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. > >> >> >>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? > >> >> >>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact > >> >> >>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - > >> >> >>>> - Show quoted text - > >> >> >>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. > >> >> >> So? > > >> >> >> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> >> - Show quoted text - > > >> >> > I never have believed in evolution. ?I think it is a fable, just as > >> >> > Paul said it was. > > >> >> Classic, got a scripture for that?- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> - Show quoted text - > > >> >Yes, we are still on the scripture in Isaiah that says that a tunnel > >> >was dug as a conduit for water between Gihon spring and the pool of > >> >Siloam. > > >> So, where is the evidence that the entire story is correct? The tunnel, > >> as you know, is not evidence that the story is correct.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > >Well, so you are still taking the position that there is no tunnel. > > Liar. > How long will ye halt between two opinions? Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision, for the day of the Lord is near in the valley of decision. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 30 Jun 2008 10:05 On Jun 29, 10:29 pm, TT <t...(a)niburn.net> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 29, 1:56�pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> Well, they do now that I have brought up the subject of Hezekiah's > >>> tunnel and the earthen ramp, which can both be seen today. �Before > >>> that, they were saying there was nothing in the Bible that was not > >>> mythology and nothing in the Bible that could be proven. �Atheists say > >>> whatever they think will fly. �It just so happened that I knew about > >>> Hezekiah's tunnel, so what they usually say was not sufficient for > >>> this conversation. �So now they are saying that the Bible has some > >>> history in it, but they are not happy about having to say that. �They > >>> would rather be saying what they said when this conversation started, > >>> that the Bible is nothing but mythology. > >>> Robert B. Winn > >> If you are as wrong about what is in the bible as you are about what > >> people you have never apparently et think about it..God help you. ;-) > > > I have read the Bible a couple of times.  What other people think > > about it is up to them.  Where they make their mistake is when they > > think they are going to tell me what I think about it. > > Robert B. Winn > >   The bigger mistake is listening to you in the first place. after a > bit of your thoughts...nobody cares...- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Right. So that is why atheists are over here in sci.physics trying to convince me to become an atheist. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 30 Jun 2008 10:10
On Jun 29, 11:47 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 29, 12:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jun 29, 12:08 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jun 28, 2:08 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:11 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:37�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 22, 12:57 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask other readers here to help me recompose them with a grammar and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> vocabulary appropos for a first or second grade pupil so you can comprehend > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and then answer them. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>>>>> All public schools are required to teach atheism. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Please explain how, specifically, they are doing that. Sounding like > >>>>>>>>>>>> another sacred lie...- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>> Teachers hired to teach in public schools are trained in college to > >>>>>>>>>>> teach atheism. > >>>>>>>>>> Is it explicit in their contract? Can you justify that claim? <chirpiing > >>>>>>>>>> crickets>- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> Well, yes it is explicit in their contract.  If someone prayed in > >>>>>>>>> school the way my sixth grade teacher did, he would be fired. > >>>>>>>> I didn't know they had a prayer clause in there. You learn something new > >>>>>>>> every day. Don't you think religion belongs at home, not at school?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Well, the Bible says that true religion is to help the widow and the > >>>>>>> fatherless in their time of affliction.  Why shouldn't widows and > >>>>>>> fatherless people be helped at school? > >>>>>> Feel free to offer some actual help rather than religion. Unless you can > >>>>>> show that you're right and everyone else is wrong, but you're not doing > >>>>>> well on that score.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Well, we religious people spend time helping widows and fatherless > >>>>> people.  How are you atheists doing with that? > >>>> Deluded people do not have the altruism market cornered, no matter what > >>>> you'd like to believe.- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> So you are saying that you actually believe some religious people are > >>> helping widows and orphans.  That is very open minded for an atheist. > >> Ummm... thanks? What you think I believe is clearly hugely different > >> from what I really believe. Is this your mischaracterisation, or have > >> you been lied to?- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Well, no, Paul was telling the truth when he said that true religion > > was caring for widows and the fatherless. > > That's a religious opinion that I don't share. "True religion" is a > difficult phrase to talk sensibly about - no religion is able to > demonstrate much objective truth more impressive than an old tunnel.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, the only reason I used the old tunnel was because it was something that atheists could come to understand after a long time. After enough repetitions, even an atheist cannot make a disconnect between what was written and what exists. Robert B. Winn |