Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: BuddyThunder on 30 Jun 2008 03:25 Free Lunch wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:15:20 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> > wrote in alt.atheism: > >> On Jun 28, 6:06?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:26:59 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Jun 28, 12:50?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Jack wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose >>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. >>>>>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to >>>>>>>>>>>> believe. >>>>>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate >>>>>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. >>>>>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be >>>>>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals >>>>>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. >>>>>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. >>>>>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? >>>>>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact >>>>>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. >>>>> So? >>>>> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - >>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>> I never have believed in evolution. ?I think it is a fable, just as >>>> Paul said it was. >>> Paul knew nothing about it. You mock the Bible with such silly >>> interpretations of it.- Hide quoted text - >>> >>> - Show quoted text - >> I just believe what Paul said. You seem a little upset that I do not >> believe your fable. > > Your problem is that you _lied_ about what Paul said. He _never_ said > that evolution was a fable. That was the lie you told, one you cannot > back up with _anything_ in the Bible, not from Paul, not from anywhere. It's gotta be tough to keep 'em all in a row this far down the road!
From: BuddyThunder on 30 Jun 2008 03:28 rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 29, 8:48�am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:48:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >> wrote in alt.atheism: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jun 29, 12:22�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 28, 12:50?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Jack wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. >>>>>>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. >>>>>>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate >>>>>>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. >>>>>>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be >>>>>>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals >>>>>>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. >>>>>>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. >>>>>>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? >>>>>>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact >>>>>>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. >>>>>> So? >>>>>> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> I never have believed in evolution. �I think it is a fable, just as >>>>> Paul said it was. >>>> Classic, got a scripture for that?- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Yes, we are still on the scripture in Isaiah that says that a tunnel >>> was dug as a conduit for water between Gihon spring and the pool of >>> Siloam. >> So, where is the evidence that the entire story is correct? The tunnel, >> as you know, is not evidence that the story is correct.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, so you are still taking the position that there is no tunnel. > If the tunnel exists, then it is evidence that the Biblical account of > the construction of the tunnel is correct. So it seems to me to > depend on whether or not there is a tunnel there. Jerusalem tour > guides say the tunnel is there and take tourists on tours through it. > Atheists say it is not there because the Bible describes its > construction. So we are discussing a religious difference. Atheists > want solid rock where tour guides say the tunnel is. They seem to > believe that if they have enough faith in atheism, the tunnel will > change to solid rock. Shall we start denying Jerusalem's existence just for kicks? You could make the same empty assertions about Jerusalem. Is it time to admit your intellectual bankruptcy? Why do you make no effort to be consistent?
From: BuddyThunder on 30 Jun 2008 03:33 rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 29, 1:14 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 29, 12:22 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 28, 12:50�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Jack wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who >>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose >>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. >>>>>>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to >>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. >>>>>>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate >>>>>>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. >>>>>>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be >>>>>>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals >>>>>>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. >>>>>>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. >>>>>>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? >>>>>>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact >>>>>>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. >>>>>> So? >>>>>> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> I never have believed in evolution. I think it is a fable, just as >>>>> Paul said it was. >>>> Classic, got a scripture for that?- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Yes, we are still on the scripture in Isaiah that says that a tunnel >>> was dug as a conduit for water between Gihon spring and the pool of >>> Siloam. >> Liar. Where did Paul tell you that evolution is a fable? Back up >> something. Just one thing...- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound > doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves > teachers, having itching ears; > > 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be > turned unto fables. Well, you tried. Where does he mention evolution? You claimed that Paul said evolution was just a fable. That's an explicit claim, can you back it up? Maybe the fable he's talking about above is Christianity.
From: BuddyThunder on 30 Jun 2008 03:36 rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 29, 1:15 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 29, 12:23 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 28, 7:00�am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:47:11 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>> On Jun 27, 9:26�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>> Well, I was the one who pointed out that the Bible in three books of >>>>>>>>> the Old Testament describes the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel. >>>>>>>>> Atheists still do not believe Hezekiah's tunnel exists. >>>>>>>> And you think London is a myth.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> No, I actually have a friend from London. �He says that Harry Potter >>>>>>> does not exist. �I think you should actually consider that >>>>>>> possibility. � I know this might be difficult for an atheist to do. >>>>>> There is a tunnel called Hezekiah's tunnel. That does not mean that the >>>>>> supposed authors of the Bible ever existed or wrote what was claimed >>>>>> that they wrote or that what was written ever happened. >>>>>> A few random facts in the Bible does not make the Bible true. This has >>>>>> been explained to you, so, it appears to me that you are just being >>>>>> stiff necked in playing your dishonest game. You mock the God you claim >>>>>> to worship with this behavior. Maybe you are just playing Loki. >>>>> Well, the tunnel got there some way. Why do you believe the Biblical >>>>> account is wrong? >>>> Because it's extraordinary supernatural claims are totally unsupported >>>> by evidence.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Well, the Bible says that the Jews took tools and dug the tunnel by >>> hand just before the Assyrian seige of Jerusalem in 701 B.C. Why do >>> you think that was a supernatural event? The same thing could be done >>> today if you could find people wiling to do that much work. >> If there's no connection to the supernatural in the account, then why do >> you think the supernatural draws any support from it?- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > God does not need support. Do you think God is a politician? From this statement I assume you would agree that there is no evidence that your god is any better than any others. It sounds like you coulf go further and admit that there's no evidence that any gods exist. If that is so, why do you believe in one?
From: BuddyThunder on 30 Jun 2008 03:39
rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 29, 1:54 pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 27, 12:34 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 26, 3:56�pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" >>>>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: >>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:09 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: >>>>>>> W.A. Sawford wrote: >>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008, rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 26, 5:05� am, RobertL <robertml...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Jun 26, 4:48� am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 7:27�pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>> Well, if no one proved it, then it was not proven. � All you have done >>>>>>>>> is to say it was proven without showing any proof or anyone who is >>>>>>>>> suppsed to have done it. �Atheists have said they have proven all >>>>>>>>> manner of things. �Almost always it turns out to be something some >>>>>>>>> individual atheist put together that sounds good to other atheists. >>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>> I wasn't going to get involved in all this (unless it's Friday, which it >>>>>>>> isn't) but I can't stand it any longer (sigh). >>>>>>>> 'Atheists have said they have proven all manner of things.' >>>>>>>> Well, what exactly have they claimed to have proved, and which atheists >>>>>>>> have claimed it? �Atheists don't actually need to 'prove' anything, >>>>>>>> because there is not a shred of evidence that god exists in the first >>>>>>>> place. The onus is not on atheists to prove the non-existence of god any >>>>>>>> more than the non-existence of the ravening bug-blatter beast of Traal. >>>>>>> Completely wrong. The concept of God is not a scientific hypotheis, nor >>>>>>> a fact. >>>>>>> So it can't be proven or disproven. >>>>>>> Its simply a shorthand for 'all the wide and wonderful stuff we cant get >>>>>>> a handle on; and feel scared by' more or less. >>>>>>> Atheism isn't so much denying His existence, nor yet keeping and open >>>>>>> mind on the subject (agnostic) its merely sidestepping the whole mess as >>>>>>> something one can simply do without. >>>>>>>> Show me some real evidence and I'll think about belief. Although actual >>>>>>>> evidence would of course remove the need for belief in the first place... >>>>>>> That's the whole point. Belief is a state of mind that has utility. Its >>>>>>> a little bit of Wise-ardry. Headology. >>>>>>> Wise-ards understand that believing in something is an action, not a >>>>>>> statement about its existence, or lack thereof. >>>>>>>> Wendy >>>>>> Your "god" is yours. �Different people have more or less >>>>>> anthropomorphic ideas of gods. �And the claim wasn't so much that your >>>>>> god of gaps was disproven (that would be a misnomer, as you're >>>>>> suggesting god is the stuff we don't know), but the literal biblical >>>>>> god is provably false. �The most obviously wrong points would be the >>>>>> age of the universe, origin of species/types, and a world-wide flood. >>>>>> There are lots of other smaller details that are contradictory to >>>>>> reality as well, but could more easily be argued as lack of knowledge >>>>>> by transcribers. >>>>>> Al- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> So scientists can be proven wrong by >>>> Correct. >>>> Religious beliefs cannot be proven wrong, because they are not a >>>> scientific theory: Since religion predicts nothing that can be tested, >>>> its is never open to challenge on a scientific basis. >>>> their belief in the Loerentz >>>>> equations, which requires a miracle to describe relativity of time. >>>>> But a miracle described by equations is OK if it results in >>>>> appropriations from public revenues so that scientists can do >>>>> research, while miracles to feed the hungry are not allowed by >>>>> science. >>>> A 'miracle' is worthy of funding if it can be tested and leads to >>>> consistent results. >>>>> Robert B. Winn- Hide quoted text - >>> Well, that was what the people who were fed by the loaves and fishes >>> said also. I do not personally see any reason to be giving scientists >>> trillions of dollars every year just because they say they believe in >>> one miracle. >> Thats not the reason why they get trillions of dollars, they get that >> for all the billions of little miracles that scienece has already made >> happen, like this machine you are looking at. >> >> In the compute stakes, >> >> Science 100% >> God 'Null point' >> >> Its not My fault that you are confusing religion and science and want to >> compare them: they are not comparable. >> >> Neither science nor religion are what you believe them to be. That's the >> trouble with belief in general. It very easy to believe in things that >> don't help, and are probably false. >> > Well, people today do that all of the time. Almost everything they > believe is propaganda. How can you know anything about the world if not through scientific inquiry? What if you picked the wrong religion?! Do you hate knowledge? |