Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Free Lunch on 30 Jun 2008 00:56 On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 20:06:25 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> wrote in alt.atheism: >On Jun 29, 1:15�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >> > On Jun 29, 12:23 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> >> rbwinn wrote: >> >>> On Jun 28, 7:00?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> >>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:47:11 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >> >>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >> >>>>> On Jun 27, 9:26?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >> >>>> ... >> >>>>>>> Well, I was the one who pointed out that the Bible in three books of >> >>>>>>> the Old Testament describes the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel. >> >>>>>>> Atheists still do not believe Hezekiah's tunnel exists. >> >>>>>> And you think London is a myth.- Hide quoted text - >> >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >> >>>>> No, I actually have a friend from London. ?He says that Harry Potter >> >>>>> does not exist. ?I think you should actually consider that >> >>>>> possibility. ? I know this might be difficult for an atheist to do. >> >>>> There is a tunnel called Hezekiah's tunnel. That does not mean that the >> >>>> supposed authors of the Bible ever existed or wrote what was claimed >> >>>> that they wrote or that what was written ever happened. >> >>>> A few random facts in the Bible does not make the Bible true. This has >> >>>> been explained to you, so, it appears to me that you are just being >> >>>> stiff necked in playing your dishonest game. You mock the God you claim >> >>>> to worship with this behavior. Maybe you are just playing Loki. >> >>> Well, the tunnel got there some way. �Why do you believe the Biblical >> >>> account is wrong? >> >> Because it's extraordinary supernatural claims are totally unsupported >> >> by evidence.- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> - Show quoted text - >> >> > Well, the Bible says that the Jews took tools and dug the tunnel by >> > hand just before the Assyrian seige of Jerusalem in 701 B.C. �Why do >> > you think that was a supernatural event? The same thing could be done >> > today if you could find people wiling to do that much work. >> >> If there's no connection to the supernatural in the account, then why do >> you think the supernatural draws any support from it?- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > >God does not need support. Do you think God is a politician? I don't think God is.
From: Free Lunch on 30 Jun 2008 00:57 On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:42:19 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> wrote in alt.atheism: >On Jun 29, 8:48?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:48:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >> wrote in alt.atheism: >> >> >> >> >> >> >On Jun 29, 12:22?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> >> rbwinn wrote: >> >> > On Jun 28, 12:50?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> >> >> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >> >> >> wrote in alt.atheism: >> >> >> >>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> >> >>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >> >> >>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >> >> >>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> >> >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >> >> >>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> >> >>>>>>>> Jack wrote: >> >> >>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who >> >> >>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose >> >> >>>>>>>>>> their >> >> >>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. >> >> >>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to >> >> >>>>>>>>> believe. >> >> >>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate >> >> >>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. >> >> >>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be >> >> >>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals >> >> >>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. >> >> >>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. >> >> >>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? >> >> >>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact >> >> >>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - >> >> >>>> - Show quoted text - >> >> >>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. >> >> >> So? >> >> >> >> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text - >> >> >> > I never have believed in evolution. ?I think it is a fable, just as >> >> > Paul said it was. >> >> >> Classic, got a scripture for that?- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> - Show quoted text - >> >> >Yes, we are still on the scripture in Isaiah that says that a tunnel >> >was dug as a conduit for water between Gihon spring and the pool of >> >Siloam. >> >> So, where is the evidence that the entire story is correct? The tunnel, >> as you know, is not evidence that the story is correct.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > >Well, so you are still taking the position that there is no tunnel. Liar. >If the tunnel exists, then it is evidence that the Biblical account of >the construction of the tunnel is correct. So it seems to me to >depend on whether or not there is a tunnel there. Jerusalem tour >guides say the tunnel is there and take tourists on tours through it. >Atheists say it is not there because the Bible describes its >construction. So we are discussing a religious difference. Atheists >want solid rock where tour guides say the tunnel is. They seem to >believe that if they have enough faith in atheism, the tunnel will >change to solid rock. >Robert B. Winn
From: TT on 30 Jun 2008 01:29 rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 29, 1:56�pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> Well, they do now that I have brought up the subject of Hezekiah's >>> tunnel and the earthen ramp, which can both be seen today. �Before >>> that, they were saying there was nothing in the Bible that was not >>> mythology and nothing in the Bible that could be proven. �Atheists say >>> whatever they think will fly. �It just so happened that I knew about >>> Hezekiah's tunnel, so what they usually say was not sufficient for >>> this conversation. �So now they are saying that the Bible has some >>> history in it, but they are not happy about having to say that. �They >>> would rather be saying what they said when this conversation started, >>> that the Bible is nothing but mythology. >>> Robert B. Winn >> If you are as wrong about what is in the bible as you are about what >> people you have never apparently et think about it..God help you. ;-) > > I have read the Bible a couple of times. What other people think > about it is up to them. Where they make their mistake is when they > think they are going to tell me what I think about it. > Robert B. Winn The bigger mistake is listening to you in the first place. after a bit of your thoughts...nobody cares...
From: BuddyThunder on 30 Jun 2008 02:43 rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 29, 12:57 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 29, 12:07 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 28, 2:09 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:02�am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:56:16 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:11�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:37?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 22, 12:57 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask other readers here to help me recompose them with a grammar and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> vocabulary appropos for a first or second grade pupil so you can comprehend >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and then answer them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All public schools are required to teach atheism. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please explain how, specifically, they are doing that. Sounding like >>>>>>>>>>>>>> another sacred lie...- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> Teachers hired to teach in public schools are trained in college to >>>>>>>>>>>>> teach atheism. >>>>>>>>>>>> Is it explicit in their contract? Can you justify that claim? <chirpiing >>>>>>>>>>>> crickets>- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> Well, yes it is explicit in their contract. �If someone prayed in >>>>>>>>>>> school the way my sixth grade teacher did, he would be fired. >>>>>>>>>> I didn't know they had a prayer clause in there. You learn something new >>>>>>>>>> every day. Don't you think religion belongs at home, not at school?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Well, the Bible says that true religion is to help the widow and the >>>>>>>>> fatherless in their time of affliction. �Why shouldn't widows and >>>>>>>>> fatherless people be helped at school? >>>>>>>> They are helped by schooling. Prayer does nothing at all.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Well, I went all the way through high school. They were not teaching >>>>>>> anything that helped me much. >>>>>> I don't believe that your difficulties with functioning in the real >>>>>> world is the fault of your educators.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> Well, a while back you were saying that the teacher I had that used to >>>>> pray in school was guilty of child abuse. What made you change your >>>>> mind? >>>> Where did I say that again? The teacher *was* certainly wrong to pray at >>>> children. >>>> Do you have difficulty following conversations? You reach... unusual >>>> conclusions.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> No, I do not have difficulty following conversations. Atheists said >>> that there was nothing in the Bible that could be proven. I said that >>> three books of the Old Testament describe the construction of >>> Hezekiah's tunnel, and sure enough, there is a tunnel right where the >>> Bible says there is. Atheists say, That does not prove there was a >>> tunnel dug where the Bible says there was because atheists do not >>> believe anything in the Bible. So far that has been the extent of >>> this conversation. >> Not true. You have been unable to back up your claims about what >> atheists have said. I've never denied the tunnel's existence. It is a >> non sequitor to get from "there's a tunnel as described in the Bible" to >> "god exists". There's some magical step in the middle there that you've >> been unable to articulate.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, in my opinion we will never go any further than the scripture in > Isaiah that says a conduit for water was dug between Gihon spring and > the Pool of Siloam. But notice one thing. We have already probably > set the record for the length of a conversation between atheists and a > Christian. Now atheists will no doubt say that the conversation was > not inspiring for them. But at this point the goal is to establish > that a conversation of more than a few words can take place between an > atheist and a normal person. I suspect you're right, we won't go beyond it, because you're incapable of outlining what that is supposed to mean to us all. I found it to be an amusing exchange, not exactly easy or enlightening, but fun enough.
From: BuddyThunder on 30 Jun 2008 02:47
rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 29, 12:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 29, 12:08 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 28, 2:08 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:11 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:37�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 22, 12:57 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask other readers here to help me recompose them with a grammar and >>>>>>>>>>>>>> vocabulary appropos for a first or second grade pupil so you can comprehend >>>>>>>>>>>>>> and then answer them. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>>>>>>>>> All public schools are required to teach atheism. >>>>>>>>>>>> Please explain how, specifically, they are doing that. Sounding like >>>>>>>>>>>> another sacred lie...- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> Teachers hired to teach in public schools are trained in college to >>>>>>>>>>> teach atheism. >>>>>>>>>> Is it explicit in their contract? Can you justify that claim? <chirpiing >>>>>>>>>> crickets>- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Well, yes it is explicit in their contract. If someone prayed in >>>>>>>>> school the way my sixth grade teacher did, he would be fired. >>>>>>>> I didn't know they had a prayer clause in there. You learn something new >>>>>>>> every day. Don't you think religion belongs at home, not at school?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Well, the Bible says that true religion is to help the widow and the >>>>>>> fatherless in their time of affliction. Why shouldn't widows and >>>>>>> fatherless people be helped at school? >>>>>> Feel free to offer some actual help rather than religion. Unless you can >>>>>> show that you're right and everyone else is wrong, but you're not doing >>>>>> well on that score.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> Well, we religious people spend time helping widows and fatherless >>>>> people. How are you atheists doing with that? >>>> Deluded people do not have the altruism market cornered, no matter what >>>> you'd like to believe.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> So you are saying that you actually believe some religious people are >>> helping widows and orphans. That is very open minded for an atheist. >> Ummm... thanks? What you think I believe is clearly hugely different >> from what I really believe. Is this your mischaracterisation, or have >> you been lied to?- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, no, Paul was telling the truth when he said that true religion > was caring for widows and the fatherless. That's a religious opinion that I don't share. "True religion" is a difficult phrase to talk sensibly about - no religion is able to demonstrate much objective truth more impressive than an old tunnel. |