Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: rbwinn on 30 Jun 2008 15:34 On Jun 30, 12:36 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 29, 1:15 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jun 29, 12:23 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jun 28, 7:00�am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:47:11 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>> On Jun 27, 9:26�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>> ... > >>>>>>>>> Well, I was the one who pointed out that the Bible in three books of > >>>>>>>>> the Old Testament describes the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel. > >>>>>>>>> Atheists still do not believe Hezekiah's tunnel exists. > >>>>>>>> And you think London is a myth.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> No, I actually have a friend from London. �He says that Harry Potter > >>>>>>> does not exist. �I think you should actually consider that > >>>>>>> possibility. � I know this might be difficult for an atheist to do. > >>>>>> There is a tunnel called Hezekiah's tunnel. That does not mean that the > >>>>>> supposed authors of the Bible ever existed or wrote what was claimed > >>>>>> that they wrote or that what was written ever happened. > >>>>>> A few random facts in the Bible does not make the Bible true. This has > >>>>>> been explained to you, so, it appears to me that you are just being > >>>>>> stiff necked in playing your dishonest game. You mock the God you claim > >>>>>> to worship with this behavior. Maybe you are just playing Loki. > >>>>> Well, the tunnel got there some way.  Why do you believe the Biblical > >>>>> account is wrong? > >>>> Because it's extraordinary supernatural claims are totally unsupported > >>>> by evidence.- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> Well, the Bible says that the Jews took tools and dug the tunnel by > >>> hand just before the Assyrian seige of Jerusalem in 701 B.C.  Why do > >>> you think that was a supernatural event? The same thing could be done > >>> today if you could find people wiling to do that much work. > >> If there's no connection to the supernatural in the account, then why do > >> you think the supernatural draws any support from it?- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > God does not need support.  Do you think God is a politician? > >  From this statement I assume you would agree that there is no evidence > that your god is any better than any others. It sounds like you coulf go > further and admit that there's no evidence that any gods exist. > > If that is so, why do you believe in one?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, if you had ever read the account of the crucifixion of Christ, you would know that when his arrest was made, all men forsook him. This relates back to Old Testament doctrines which allowed only the high Priest to enter the holy of holies in the temple, signifying that Christ would have no help in atoning for the sins of mankind, but would do it alone. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 30 Jun 2008 15:38 On Jun 30, 12:39 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 29, 1:54 pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jun 27, 12:34 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jun 26, 3:56�pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > >>>>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > >>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:09 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >>>>>>> W.A. Sawford wrote: > >>>>>>>> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008, rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jun 26, 5:05� am, RobertL <robertml...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On Jun 26, 4:48� am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 7:27�pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> Well, if no one proved it, then it was not proven. � All you have done > >>>>>>>>> is to say it was proven without showing any proof or anyone who is > >>>>>>>>> suppsed to have done it. �Atheists have said they have proven all > >>>>>>>>> manner of things. �Almost always it turns out to be something some > >>>>>>>>> individual atheist put together that sounds good to other atheists. > >>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>> I wasn't going to get involved in all this (unless it's Friday, which it > >>>>>>>> isn't) but I can't stand it any longer (sigh). > >>>>>>>> 'Atheists have said they have proven all manner of things.' > >>>>>>>> Well, what exactly have they claimed to have proved, and which atheists > >>>>>>>> have claimed it? �Atheists don't actually need to 'prove' anything, > >>>>>>>> because there is not a shred of evidence that god exists in the first > >>>>>>>> place. The onus is not on atheists to prove the non-existence of god any > >>>>>>>> more than the non-existence of the ravening bug-blatter beast of Traal. > >>>>>>> Completely wrong. The concept of God is not a scientific hypotheis, nor > >>>>>>> a fact. > >>>>>>> So it can't be proven or disproven. > >>>>>>> Its simply a shorthand for 'all the wide and wonderful stuff we cant get > >>>>>>> a handle on; and feel scared by' more or less. > >>>>>>> Atheism isn't so much denying His existence, nor yet keeping and open > >>>>>>> mind on the subject (agnostic) its merely sidestepping the whole mess as > >>>>>>> something one can simply do without. > >>>>>>>> Show me some real evidence and I'll think about belief. Although actual > >>>>>>>> evidence would of course remove the need for belief in the first place... > >>>>>>> That's the whole point. Belief is a state of mind that has utility. Its > >>>>>>> a little bit of Wise-ardry. Headology. > >>>>>>> Wise-ards understand that believing in something is an action, not a > >>>>>>> statement about its existence, or lack thereof. > >>>>>>>> Wendy > >>>>>> Your "god" is yours. �Different people have more or less > >>>>>> anthropomorphic ideas of gods. �And the claim wasn't so much that your > >>>>>> god of gaps was disproven (that would be a misnomer, as you're > >>>>>> suggesting god is the stuff we don't know), but the literal biblical > >>>>>> god is provably false. �The most obviously wrong points would be the > >>>>>> age of the universe, origin of species/types, and a world-wide flood. > >>>>>> There are lots of other smaller details that are contradictory to > >>>>>> reality as well, but could more easily be argued as lack of knowledge > >>>>>> by transcribers. > >>>>>> Al- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> So scientists can be proven wrong by > >>>> Correct. > >>>> Religious beliefs cannot be proven wrong, because they are  not a > >>>> scientific theory: Since religion  predicts nothing that can be tested, > >>>> its is never open to challenge on a scientific basis. > >>>>  their belief in the Loerentz > >>>>> equations, which requires a miracle to describe relativity of time. > >>>>> But a miracle described by equations is OK if it results in > >>>>> appropriations from public revenues so that scientists can do > >>>>> research, while miracles to feed the hungry are not allowed by > >>>>> science. > >>>> A 'miracle' is worthy of funding if it can be tested and leads to > >>>> consistent results. > >>>>> Robert B. Winn- Hide quoted text - > >>> Well, that was what the people who were fed by the loaves and fishes > >>> said also.  I do not personally see any reason to be giving scientists > >>> trillions of dollars every year just because they say they believe in > >>> one miracle. > >> Thats not the reason why they get trillions of dollars, they get that > >> for all the billions of little miracles that scienece has already made > >> happen, like this machine you are looking at. > > >> In the compute stakes, > > >> Science 100% > >> God 'Null point' > > >> Its not My fault that you are confusing religion and science and want to > >> compare them: they are not comparable. > > >> Neither science nor religion are what you believe them to be. That's the > >> trouble with belief in general. It very easy to believe in things that > >> don't help, and are probably false. > > > Well, people today do that all of the time.  Almost everything they > > believe is propaganda. > > How can you know anything about the world if not through scientific > inquiry? What if you picked the wrong religion?! Do you hate knowledge?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, for instance , even though I have never been to Jerusalem, I can find information about Hezekiah's tunnel right on the internet, also about the ramp built by the Assyrian army to get over the city wall at Lachish. No scientists were involved in this process. I am still in the religion I was born in. I picked the religion I am in before I was born. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 30 Jun 2008 15:41 On Jun 30, 12:45 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 29, 2:11 pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jun 27, 6:54�pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: > >>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >>>>news:93faee1e-7aa9-4f18-b761-3a585ebcbaf0(a)v1g2000pra.googlegroups.com.... > >>>> On Jun 26, 5:05 am, RobertL <robertml...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > >>>>> On Jun 26, 4:48 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > >>>>>> On Jun 25, 7:27?pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> Actually, you ought to consider the consequences of a proof by God > >>>>>>>> that he does not exist. > >>>>>>> If that were to happen, people would have no choice except to believe > >>>>>>> in God. > >>>>>>> Why should anyone believe in a proven non-existent god? > >>>>>> Proven by whom? > >>>> By god himself! > >>>>> A proof is a proof; it doesn't matter who proved it. > >>>>> Robert > >>>> Well, if there was no one who proved it, and nothing was proven, then > >>>> it did not happen. > >>>> ----------------------------------- > >>>> Just like your bible stories. > >>> Well, I believed in the story of Hezekiah's tunnel being dug, and sure > >>> enough, there is a tunnel there today, just as the Bible says there > >>> is.  How do you explain it? > >> ER..there was a tunnel? > > >> So what? > > >>> Robert B. Winn- Hide quoted text - > >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Well, if there was an atheist anywhere who would admit that the verses > > of the Bible which describe the construction of the tunnel were true, > > then we could discuss other verses.  As long as atheists claim that > > Hezekiah's tunnel is a myth, then we will just discuss Hezekiah's > > tunnel. > > We'll admit that when you admit that there's a magic platform at Kings > Cross station as described in Harry Potter. > > The Bible writers could've been writing fiction about a real place. Why > do you discount this interpretation of the evidence?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, war correspondents could have been writing fiction about a real place when they wrote about the Normandy invasion on D-Day. Once all the soldiers are dead who made the beachhead, who is to say otherwise? Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 30 Jun 2008 15:43 On Jun 30, 12:55 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 29, 1:56�pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> Well, they do now that I have brought up the subject of Hezekiah's > >>> tunnel and the earthen ramp, which can both be seen today. �Before > >>> that, they were saying there was nothing in the Bible that was not > >>> mythology and nothing in the Bible that could be proven. �Atheists say > >>> whatever they think will fly. �It just so happened that I knew about > >>> Hezekiah's tunnel, so what they usually say was not sufficient for > >>> this conversation. �So now they are saying that the Bible has some > >>> history in it, but they are not happy about having to say that. �They > >>> would rather be saying what they said when this conversation started, > >>> that the Bible is nothing but mythology. > >>> Robert B. Winn > >> If you are as wrong about what is in the bible as you are about what > >> people you have never apparently et think about it..God help you. ;-) > > > I have read the Bible a couple of times.  What other people think > > about it is up to them.  Where they make their mistake is when they > > think they are going to tell me what I think about it. > > Another baseless accusation. You're the one with the strawman opinion of > atheists. You're totally free to believe whatever magical nonsense you > want, just don't expect anyone to accept it without rational basis. Your > thoughts, such as they are, are totally your own. > > See how nice and tollerant us atheists are? :-)- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - No. All you are doing is mimicking me. If I had not said you were free to believe what you want, you never would have said it. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 30 Jun 2008 15:53
On Jun 30, 1:18 am, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: > On Jun 28, 9:59 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 28, 12:19 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > rbwinn wrote: > > > > On Jun 27, 6:38 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > >> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>> On Jun 22, 12:58 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>> On Jun 21, 5:07 pm, Darrell Stec <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > >>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>> On Jun 20, 4:22 pm, Darrell Stec <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > >>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 3:35 am, Darrell Stec <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 19, 8:22 am, Darrell Stec <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 3:50 pm, Darrell Stec > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 10:11�am, Darrell Stec > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 17, 2:53�am, Darrell Stec > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I analyzed the Bible. �What I find is that God > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not want His children to die and just cease to be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or to be punished forever, so He sent his Son to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcome death. �Because of wickedness, we see today > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that most people will reject God's gift of eternal life. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me ask you a question. �Who would know more about LDS > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theology, one of the churches twelve apostles, or a Hari > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Krishna monk> > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Who do you think would know more about LDS theology? �Why > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you ask? Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evasion noted. �Why are you afraid to answer a couple of easy > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions? Why do you think I would ask? �Could it be the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer might be obvious? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if the answer is obvious, then there was no reason to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask the question.  Go ahead and say whatever you were going to > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say. Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you afraid to tell us whether or not one of the 12 > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apostles of the Mormon church would know more about LDS theology > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> than an Hari Krishna monk? What are you afraid of?  I know the > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer, but I don't know if you do and that is why I am asking. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Later, > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Darrell Stec    dars...(a)neo.rr.com > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, why don't you just make up your own mind about that? > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> I already have made an informed and knowledgeable opinion..  I am > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> trying to find out what you believe (asking what you think would be > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> unfair because you are shooting without bullets) to be the case. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you afraid to answer the question?  Is it because it has > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> never been discussed in bible school and you have nothing to copy > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> and paste? Go ask your bishop what he thinks, as you allow others > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> to think for you until you pull stupid things out of thin air. > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Well, why don't you ask my bishop yourself? > > > >>>>>>>>>> What is his name, email address, physical address and phone number and > > > >>>>>>>>>> I will ask him.  I'll also send him a list of your more insane > > > >>>>>>>>>> postings. > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I told you athiests > > > >>>>>>>>>>> before that I was not going to be your researcher. > > > >>>>>>>>>> What research do you need to do to answer a question as to whether an > > > >>>>>>>>>> apostle of your church's council of twelve would know more about LDS > > > >>>>>>>>>> philosophy than a Hari Krishna monk?  That is a person opinion.  Or do > > > >>>>>>>>>> you mean that nobody told you what to think in regard to the question > > > >>>>>>>>>> so you can't copy and paste it? > > > >>>>>>>>>>> If you want to know what I believe,I can give you name to the > > > >>>>>>>>>>> missionaries as a referral , and they can tell you what I beleive. > > > >>>>>>>>>> Why can't you give us your opinion yourself?  Why are you having so > > > >>>>>>>>>> many problems answering an easy question?  What are you afraid of? > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>>> Well, the General Authorities of our church have counseled us to avoid > > > >>>>>>>>> contention with other churches.  So if you have some bone to pick with > > > >>>>>>>>> the Hare Kirshna church, leave me out of it. > > > >>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>>>> Why are you avoiding the question?  Why is it so difficult for you to > > > >>>>>>>> answer the question?  It is a simple one.  Whom do you think knows more > > > >>>>>>>> about LDS theology, one of the twelve apostles making up the council of > > > >>>>>>>> the LDS church or a Hari Krishna monk?  What are you afraid of. > > > >>>>>>>> Certainly there is no injunction in your church against answering the > > > >>>>>>>> question.  Why are you avoiding it? > > > >>>>>>> I am not avoiding it.  You said the answer is obvious, so obviously, > > > >>>>>>> you already know the answer. > > > >>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > >>>>>> I know the answer to the question.  I do not know what YOUR answer to the > > > >>>>>> question is because you are too afraid to answer a simple, direct question. > > > >>>>>> Why is that?  I want to know what YOUR answer to the question is. > > > >>>>>> -- > > > >>>>> Well, just write to church headquarters in Salt Lake City and get an > > > >>>>> official answer from the church.  Anything I could tell you would only > > > >>>>> be my own opinion. > > > >>>> Anything they tell us would only be theirs.- Hide quoted text - > > > >>>> - Show quoted text - > > > >>> Well, so you are going to make up something then and attribute it to > > > >>> us.  We have seen this before. > > > >> I'm not sure where this claim comes from, can you tell me?- Hide quoted text - > > > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > > > It came from me. > > > > Maybe if you could show me where I did that? Why won't you back up > > > anything you say?- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > Well, for instance, I said that Hezekiah's tunnel exists, and you and > > other atheists claimed that I had said that London, England, does not > > exist.  I did not say a thing about London, England.  It all came from > > atheists. > > Robert B. Winn > > You have no capability to understand anything? > You mentioned that tunnel exited and therefore bible is true. > We mentioned London existed and therefore Harry Potter is true, by > your own same contention. > But you twist the argument; and this shows your brain really has a > problem... you need us to recommend one good particular psychiatrist > to help ?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - There are no psychiatrists left that I know about who want to talk to me. Robert B. Winn |