Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: hhyapster on 4 Jul 2008 23:37 On Jul 4, 11:32 pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:26:53 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote > in alt.atheism: > > > > >On Jul 4, 2:57 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >> > On Jul 3, 4:15?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> >> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 03:44:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote > >> >> in alt.atheism: > > >> >>> On Jul 2, 5:28?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> >> ... > > >> >>>> Your claim is completely without support. Since you rely on an > >> >>>> indefensible claim for the rest of your doctrine, your doctrines are not > >> >>>> worth considering. > >> >>> Well, I consider God to be sufficient support. ?If you think He is > >> >>> not, ?go ahead and try to prove it. > >> >>> Robert B. Winn > >> >> Please provide any evidence that any claim ever made about God is true. > > >> > Well, there is an earthen ramp that the Assyrian army built to get > >> > over the city wall at Lachish. > > >> So? I have built several earthen ramps. > >> Am I then God? > > >> > Atheists do not believe in the earthen ramp. > > >> well firstly that is false, because I do believe in earthen ramps, > >> having built many, and I am an atheist. > > >> And secondly what has the fact that person B may or may not believe > >> statement X, have to do with the existence, or not, of personality Z? > > >God did not build the earthen ramp. The Assyrian army did. God would > >have preferred that they did not build it and had left the city of > >Lachish and its inhabitants alone. > > Are you saying that God was powerless to stop them? The bible contains enormous mistakes to glorify god yet plainly telling us that god is a useless being. The early Jews who wrote it were not educated, or might be drunk. Yes, more drunk than wake.
From: hhyapster on 4 Jul 2008 23:47 On Jul 5, 1:34 am, rich...(a)rmeredith.co.uk (Richard Meredith) wrote: > In article <g4lbtl$9p...(a)cam-news1.cambridge.arm.com>, > > > > chris.sh...(a)arm.nospam.com (Chris Shore) wrote: > > *From:* "Chris Shore" <chris.sh...(a)arm.nospam.com> > > *Date:* Fri, 4 Jul 2008 15:25:57 +0100 > > > "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >news:b5ef084b-b578-47aa-b9bf-1285e1588579(a)27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com. > > .. > > > >Well, there is an earthen ramp that the Assyrian army built to get > > >over the city wall at Lachish. Atheists do not believe in the > > earthen > > >ramp. > > > Of course atheists believe in the ramp. It exists and its existence > > cannot > > be denied. But the existence of the ramp does not prove that the > > entire > > OT is fact, nor does it prove anything, anything at all, about God. > > > What is your point in pointing out the existence of this thing? > > There is no point. Usenet discussions about religion are seldom anything > more than an opportunity for all sorts of people to restate their > particular set of beliefs loudly and vociferously while paying little > attention and less respect to the views of anyone else. Of course, if the views of others are a bunch of lies and fairy tales wanting to be real. We are up against the false teaching in brainwashing the young and innocent.
From: hhyapster on 4 Jul 2008 23:53 On Jul 5, 1:41 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 4, 3:06 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 3, 5:32�pm, "Alex W." <ing...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > >>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >>>>news:9fadb87c-6364-49eb-9ca6-c8fd555f6cd3(a)a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > >>>> On Jul 3, 6:05?am, "Alex W." <ing...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > >>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >>>>>news:f807e4d0-b40f-4cb8-bb4c-12f00021898d(a)34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... > >>>>> Well, the scriptures say that the wicked would be more miserable in > >>>>> the presence of God than with the devils in hell. > >>>>> =========== > >>>>> In other words, since we are all sinful by definition, the smart choice is > >>>>> to aim for hell in the first place. ?Nice morality .... > >>>> No, the smart choice is to repent of sins. �However, atheists claim > >>>> that nothing they do is sin, so they are not going to repent. > >>>> ========== > >>>> Sin is a social construct. �It exists irrespective of the god(s) worshipped > >>>> ... or not, as the case may be. > >>> Well, there is no sin in heaven. Maybe that is why atheists do not > >>> want to go there. > >> It's more true to say that by removing what you loosely term sin, you > >> arrive at a place you loosely call heaven. > > >> However it is only one point on a certain map: there are many other > >> places to visit.. > > >> As the Jewish mystics were well aware.. > > > Well, for instance, you could visit hell. Why anyone would want to > > visit hell, I do not know. > > Oh dear. tere are at least 22 places in 4different planes, apart from > the qlipoth, on the kabbalsiic maps, none of which is hell. Hell is a > pagan European invention. > > > Robert B. Winn Well, I guess all people are the same. Why would ancient European being more advance also invent lies to con other people?
From: BuddyThunder on 5 Jul 2008 05:42 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself? You were the one who thought of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust. You decide what you are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful >>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims? I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for >>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam. Why do you think >>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? >>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to >>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely >>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a >>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a >>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish. To an atheist >>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually >>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just >>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do. Since atheists >>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to >>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. >>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it >>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support >>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. >>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well. The Assyrians came >>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home >>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt. Judea was a little dot in the >>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to >>>>>>>>> Egypt. So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King >>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah? Sennacherib >>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. >>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes? The column erected by Sennacherib >>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today. He plainly says on it that Hezekiah >>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home >>>>>>> after he got the money. >>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't >>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 >>>>>> troops in a night. >>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> 186,000 troops. Chaldean historians of the same time said that the >>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and >>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. >>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he >>>>> erected. He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the >>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons >>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the >>>>> army. >>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides >>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever >>> against the Assyrians. But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian >>> king who lost everything, including his own life. So I would say, let >>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it >>> their way. The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord >>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops. That is a matter of record. It is >>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. >> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests >> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of >> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is >> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old > Testament, but it says what it says. It says in three different > books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians > and slew 186,000 soldiers. It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of years ago. The Bible is not reliable.
From: The Natural Philosopher on 5 Jul 2008 05:49
rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 4, 8:42�am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:28:00 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote >> in alt.atheism: >> >> >> >> >> >>> On Jul 4, 3:03?am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: >>>> Alex W. wrote: >>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>> news:9fadb87c-6364-49eb-9ca6-c8fd555f6cd3(a)a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... >>>>> On Jul 3, 6:05?am, "Alex W." <ing...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:f807e4d0-b40f-4cb8-bb4c-12f00021898d(a)34g2000hsh.googlegroups.com... >>>>>> Well, the scriptures say that the wicked would be more miserable in >>>>>> the presence of God than with the devils in hell. >>>>>> =========== >>>>>> In other words, since we are all sinful by definition, the smart choice is >>>>>> to aim for hell in the first place. ?Nice morality .... >>>>> No, the smart choice is to repent of sins. ?However, atheists claim >>>>> that nothing they do is sin, so they are not going to repent. >>>> Which to me indicates you have no idea what sin, or repentance, is. >>>>> ========== >>>>> Sin is a social construct. ?It exists irrespective of the god(s) worshipped >>>>> ... or not, as the case may be.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Sin is wilful disobedience of God. �Repentance is confessing and >>> forsaking sin. >> As far as we can tell, God is a human invention. God never told us to do >> anything. Sin, therefore, is also a human invention.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > So once an atheist enters into sin, there is no turning back from > it. I guess that was why Josef Stalin killed 12 million people. No, he did that because it was an Omnipotents God's Will Surely? Unless you subscribe to the Manichean Heresy, whih says that there is an equally powerful force of sin, and it was HIS will ;-) The trouble with the 'God is Good, God is top dog' theory is that its manifestly untrue. Unless you redefine Good to include Evil, of course.. > Robert B. Winn |