Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: rbwinn on 5 Jul 2008 21:54 On Jul 5, 2:31 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself?  You were the one who thought of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust.  You decide what you are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims?  I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam.  Why do you think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a > >>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a > >>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish.  To an atheist > >>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually > >>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just > >>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do.  Since atheists > >>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to > >>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it > >>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support > >>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. > >>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well.  The Assyrians came > >>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home > >>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt.  Judea was a little dot in the > >>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to > >>>>>>>>>>> Egypt.  So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King > >>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah?  Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes?  The column erected by Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today.  He plainly says on it that Hezekiah > >>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home > >>>>>>>>> after he got the money. > >>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't > >>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 > >>>>>>>> troops in a night. > >>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> 186,000 troops.  Chaldean historians of the same time said that the > >>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and > >>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. > >>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he > >>>>>>> erected.  He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the > >>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons > >>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the > >>>>>>> army. > >>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides > >>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever > >>>>> against the Assyrians.  But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian > >>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life.  So I would say, let > >>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it > >>>>> their way.  The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord > >>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops.  That is a matter of record.  It is > >>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. > >>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests > >>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of > >>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is > >>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old > >>> Testament, but it says what it says.  It says in three different > >>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians > >>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. > >> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of > >> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time > > unless you are talking about the earth.  Then you insist on absolute > > time. > > Instead you make some ridiculous claims about the relativity of time > completely without evidential basis, or... any rational support at all. > The Earth is older than 6500 thousand years old. Much older. I'll go > with the many independent lines of verification on that one.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, that is fine, but why is relativity of time something that exists except when talking about the earth? Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 5 Jul 2008 21:57 On Jul 5, 2:34 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 4, 6:37 pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: > >> On Jul 4, 7:09 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > >>> On Jul 3, 7:19 pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: > >>>> On Jul 4, 6:33 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 3, 2:01 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 2, 5:52�pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 17:26:00 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:15�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 8:49?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:14:36 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:07?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 00:17:22 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 3:58?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:06:02 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi....(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 4:12?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:23:58 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi....(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 7:07?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:06:07 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not lie. ?There actually is a conduit for water between Gihon > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spring and the pool of Siloam. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, as you know, that is not the lie I have pointed out to you. You lie > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here by falsely and intentionally trying to distract us from the lie > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under discussion. You know that no one imposes abortion in the United > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States. That is another in a long line of lies that you refuse to repent > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Supreme Court and other atheists imposed abortion on the United > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Abortion is not imposed. You know that. No one is ever forced to have an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abortion by our government. Stop lying to us. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Women have been forced to have abortions in order to get welfare > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Citation, please. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And our government still recognizes our right to trial by jury, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice attempt at distraction, but completely irrelevant. This has > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely nothing to do with women being forced to have abortions in > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> order to get welfare assistance. Which is still a completely bogus > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim on your part. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How gullible do you think I am about "our government"? ?Or > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe you are just including atheists when you say "our government". > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't say you were gullible, I said you were lying. Your pathetic > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to change the subject, rather than support your claim, just > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> confirms my assessment. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> I personally know one woman who was subjected to governmental > >>>>>>>>>>>>> reproduction control. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Was she Chinese? Seriously, put up, or shut up. You made a claim; now > >>>>>>>>>>>> either back it up or retract it.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>> Do atheists have some special program for Chinese women in the United > >>>>>>>>>>> States? �We know they do in China. �However, there are a lot of women > >>>>>>>>>>> in the United States you do not even seem to consider, women in mental > >>>>>>>>>>> institutions, women in prisons, etc., but the one I know personally > >>>>>>>>>>> was just a woman who applied for welfare assistance. > >>>>>>>>>> Playing a slippery game, aren't you Robert? ;-)- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> I am not playing a game. �Atheists run China, and women in China > >>>>>>>>> definitely do get government ordered abortions. �It also happens here > >>>>>>>>> in the United States. > >>>>>>>> Again, bullshit. Provide one *documented* example of it happening in > >>>>>>>> the US. Not an anecdote about some woman you claim to know. Your > >>>>>>>> credibility is zero until you back up your claim.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Well, I would suspect that nothing like that ever gets documented.. > >>>>>>> Here in Phoenix a woman went to an abortion clinic, bled to death > >>>>>>> after the doctor went home, and the staff of the abortion clinic put > >>>>>>> her in the trunk of a car.  Strangely, the police discovered when they > >>>>>>> found her body that none of it had been documented.  So we do know > >>>>>>> that sometimes things do not get documented. > >>>>>> That is kind of sad. You have to do a lot of back-pedalling to try to > >>>>>> square your opinions with some vague notion of reality, don't you!- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Your claim is that no woman in the United States has ever been > >>>>> subjected to reproductive control.  I say you are wrong.  I personally > >>>>> know a woman who was.  So let's talk about China.  Do you claim that > >>>>> no women in China have ever been subjected to reproduction control?  I > >>>>> believe that you atheists have a plan in place for the entire world, > >>>>> not just the United States and China. > >>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>> Yes, our plan is to rid this world of loonies and bigotry which is > >>>> leading the way backwards.... > >>>> You find that so bad?- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> Well, I believe Adolf Hitler had a similar plan.   Just get rid of > >>> the inferior beings, and everything will be wonderful, right?  So how > >>> does that get rid of bigotry? > >>> Robert B. Winn > >> No, Hitler planned for his race. > >> We want to get rid of falsehood/lies which impede human progress. > >> And if we stick to lies, how would that make us in the next generation?- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > About the same way you are now. > > Is there no end to your ability to stick your head in the sand and > ignore that virtually nothing you've said has any basis in fact?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, I thought that the earthen ramp and Hezekiah's tunnel had basis in fact. Atheists say no. So what should I believe? Well, I think I will believe my eyes. There actually is an earthen ramp and a tunnel. Robert B,. Winn
From: rbwinn on 5 Jul 2008 22:00 On Jul 5, 2:40 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 4, 8:37�pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: > >> On Jul 4, 11:32 pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > > >>> On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 08:26:53 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote > >>> in alt.atheism: > >>>> On Jul 4, 2:57 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>> On Jul 3, 4:15?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 03:44:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote > >>>>>>> in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 5:28?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>> ... > >>>>>>>>> Your claim is completely without support. Since you rely on an > >>>>>>>>> indefensible claim for the rest of your doctrine, your doctrines are not > >>>>>>>>> worth considering. > >>>>>>>> Well, I consider God to be sufficient support. ?If you think He is > >>>>>>>> not, ?go ahead and try to prove it. > >>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>> Please provide any evidence that any claim ever made about God is true. > >>>>>> Well, there is an earthen ramp that the Assyrian army built to get > >>>>>> over the city wall at Lachish. > >>>>> So? I have built several earthen ramps. > >>>>> Am I then God? > >>>>>> Atheists do not believe in the earthen ramp. > >>>>> well firstly that is false, because I do believe in earthen ramps, > >>>>> having built many, and I am an atheist. > >>>>> And secondly what has the fact that �person B may or may not believe > >>>>> statement X, have to do with the existence, or not, of personality Z? > >>>> God did not build the earthen ramp. �The Assyrian army did. �God would > >>>> have preferred that they did not build it and had left the city of > >>>> Lachish and its inhabitants alone. > >>> Are you saying that God was powerless to stop them? > >> The bible contains enormous mistakes to glorify god yet plainly > >> telling us that god is a useless being. > >> The early Jews who wrote it were not educated, or might be drunk. Yes, > >> more drunk than wake.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Well, as you say, if you think God is a useless being, then you will > > choose to be with the beings you think of as being useful, other > > atheists. > > So you concede there are many mistakes or untruths in the Bible then?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Why does it depend on me? The Bible is what it is. If you do not like the Bible, read something else. Robert B. Winn
From: BuddyThunder on 6 Jul 2008 03:44 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 5, 2:31 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself? You were the one who thought of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust. You decide what you are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims? I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam. Why do you think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish. To an atheist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do. Since atheists >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it >>>>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well. The Assyrians came >>>>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home >>>>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt. Judea was a little dot in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to >>>>>>>>>>>>> Egypt. So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah? Sennacherib >>>>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. >>>>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes? The column erected by Sennacherib >>>>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today. He plainly says on it that Hezekiah >>>>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home >>>>>>>>>>> after he got the money. >>>>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't >>>>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 >>>>>>>>>> troops in a night. >>>>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> 186,000 troops. Chaldean historians of the same time said that the >>>>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and >>>>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. >>>>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he >>>>>>>>> erected. He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the >>>>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons >>>>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the >>>>>>>>> army. >>>>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides >>>>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever >>>>>>> against the Assyrians. But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian >>>>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life. So I would say, let >>>>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it >>>>>>> their way. The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord >>>>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops. That is a matter of record. It is >>>>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. >>>>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests >>>>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of >>>>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is >>>>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old >>>>> Testament, but it says what it says. It says in three different >>>>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians >>>>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. >>>> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of >>>> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time >>> unless you are talking about the earth. Then you insist on absolute >>> time. >> Instead you make some ridiculous claims about the relativity of time >> completely without evidential basis, or... any rational support at all. >> The Earth is older than 6500 thousand years old. Much older. I'll go >> with the many independent lines of verification on that one.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, that is fine, but why is relativity of time something that > exists except when talking about the earth? Because Earth isn't travelling at near light speed. I'm no physicist but...
From: BuddyThunder on 6 Jul 2008 03:49
rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 5, 2:34 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 4, 6:37 pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: >>>> On Jul 4, 7:09 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >>>>> On Jul 3, 7:19 pm, hhyaps...(a)gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> On Jul 4, 6:33 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 3, 2:01 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 5:52�pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 17:26:00 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:15�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 8:49?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:14:36 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:07?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 00:17:22 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 3:58?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:06:02 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 4:12?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:23:58 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 7:07?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:06:07 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not lie. ?There actually is a conduit for water between Gihon >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spring and the pool of Siloam. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, as you know, that is not the lie I have pointed out to you. You lie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here by falsely and intentionally trying to distract us from the lie >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under discussion. You know that no one imposes abortion in the United >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States. That is another in a long line of lies that you refuse to repent >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Supreme Court and other atheists imposed abortion on the United >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Abortion is not imposed. You know that. No one is ever forced to have an >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abortion by our government. Stop lying to us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Women have been forced to have abortions in order to get welfare >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Citation, please. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And our government still recognizes our right to trial by jury, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> right? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Nice attempt at distraction, but completely irrelevant. This has >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> absolutely nothing to do with women being forced to have abortions in >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> order to get welfare assistance. Which is still a completely bogus >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claim on your part. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How gullible do you think I am about "our government"? ?Or >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maybe you are just including atheists when you say "our government". >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't say you were gullible, I said you were lying. Your pathetic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> attempt to change the subject, rather than support your claim, just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> confirms my assessment. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I personally know one woman who was subjected to governmental >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reproduction control. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Was she Chinese? Seriously, put up, or shut up. You made a claim; now >>>>>>>>>>>>>> either back it up or retract it.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> Do atheists have some special program for Chinese women in the United >>>>>>>>>>>>> States? �We know they do in China. �However, there are a lot of women >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the United States you do not even seem to consider, women in mental >>>>>>>>>>>>> institutions, women in prisons, etc., but the one I know personally >>>>>>>>>>>>> was just a woman who applied for welfare assistance. >>>>>>>>>>>> Playing a slippery game, aren't you Robert? ;-)- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> I am not playing a game. �Atheists run China, and women in China >>>>>>>>>>> definitely do get government ordered abortions. �It also happens here >>>>>>>>>>> in the United States. >>>>>>>>>> Again, bullshit. Provide one *documented* example of it happening in >>>>>>>>>> the US. Not an anecdote about some woman you claim to know. Your >>>>>>>>>> credibility is zero until you back up your claim.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Well, I would suspect that nothing like that ever gets documented. >>>>>>>>> Here in Phoenix a woman went to an abortion clinic, bled to death >>>>>>>>> after the doctor went home, and the staff of the abortion clinic put >>>>>>>>> her in the trunk of a car. Strangely, the police discovered when they >>>>>>>>> found her body that none of it had been documented. So we do know >>>>>>>>> that sometimes things do not get documented. >>>>>>>> That is kind of sad. You have to do a lot of back-pedalling to try to >>>>>>>> square your opinions with some vague notion of reality, don't you!- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Your claim is that no woman in the United States has ever been >>>>>>> subjected to reproductive control. I say you are wrong. I personally >>>>>>> know a woman who was. So let's talk about China. Do you claim that >>>>>>> no women in China have ever been subjected to reproduction control? I >>>>>>> believe that you atheists have a plan in place for the entire world, >>>>>>> not just the United States and China. >>>>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>>>> Yes, our plan is to rid this world of loonies and bigotry which is >>>>>> leading the way backwards.... >>>>>> You find that so bad?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> Well, I believe Adolf Hitler had a similar plan. Just get rid of >>>>> the inferior beings, and everything will be wonderful, right? So how >>>>> does that get rid of bigotry? >>>>> Robert B. Winn >>>> No, Hitler planned for his race. >>>> We want to get rid of falsehood/lies which impede human progress. >>>> And if we stick to lies, how would that make us in the next generation?- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> About the same way you are now. >> Is there no end to your ability to stick your head in the sand and >> ignore that virtually nothing you've said has any basis in fact?- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, I thought that the earthen ramp and Hezekiah's tunnel had basis > in fact. Atheists say no. So what should I believe? Well, I think I > will believe my eyes. There actually is an earthen ramp and a tunnel. Well, ----------------------------- Ho! <whack> |