Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Alex W. on 8 Jul 2008 12:03 "Smiler" <Smiler(a)Joe.King.com> wrote in message news:YJAck.156910$P83.52298(a)newsfe20.ams2... > > "Alex W." <ingilt(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > news:6d934qF1eu8nU1(a)mid.individual.net... >> >> "Smiler" <Smiler(a)Joe.King.com> wrote in message >> news:m6zbk.192976$NN3.170950(a)newsfe08.ams2... >>> >>> "rbwinn" <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>> news:211e4c29-e783-4569-b7f9- >> >>> >>> Well, his sheep know his voice. Atheists do not. >>> ---------------------------------- >>> >>> Jesus loves ewe! >>> >> >> Jesus was Welsh? >> > > More likely, from Norfolk ;-) Stephen Fry is God? :-)
From: Mark K. Bilbo on 8 Jul 2008 12:37 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 6, 12:44 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 5, 2:31 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself? You were the one who thought of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust. You decide what you are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims? I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam. Why do you think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish. To an atheist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do. Since atheists >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well. The Assyrians came >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt. Judea was a little dot in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Egypt. So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah? Sennacherib >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes? The column erected by Sennacherib >>>>>>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today. He plainly says on it that Hezekiah >>>>>>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home >>>>>>>>>>>>> after he got the money. >>>>>>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 >>>>>>>>>>>> troops in a night. >>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> 186,000 troops. Chaldean historians of the same time said that the >>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and >>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. >>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he >>>>>>>>>>> erected. He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the >>>>>>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons >>>>>>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the >>>>>>>>>>> army. >>>>>>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides >>>>>>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever >>>>>>>>> against the Assyrians. But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian >>>>>>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life. So I would say, let >>>>>>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it >>>>>>>>> their way. The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord >>>>>>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops. That is a matter of record. It is >>>>>>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. >>>>>>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests >>>>>>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of >>>>>>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is >>>>>>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old >>>>>>> Testament, but it says what it says. It says in three different >>>>>>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians >>>>>>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. >>>>>> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of >>>>>> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time >>>>> unless you are talking about the earth. Then you insist on absolute >>>>> time. >>>> Instead you make some ridiculous claims about the relativity of time >>>> completely without evidential basis, or... any rational support at all. >>>> The Earth is older than 6500 thousand years old. Much older. I'll go >>>> with the many independent lines of verification on that one.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Well, that is fine, but why is relativity of time something that >>> exists except when talking about the earth? >> Because Earth isn't travelling at near light speed. I'm no physicist but...- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > So what makes you believe that motion is the only factor that would > affect time? Oh *do* tell what else works...
From: Mark K. Bilbo on 8 Jul 2008 12:38 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 6, 1:53 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 6, 12:44 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 5, 2:31 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself? You were the one who thought of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust. You decide what you are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims? I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam. Why do you think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish. To an atheist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do. Since atheists >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well. The Assyrians came >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt. Judea was a little dot in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Egypt. So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah? Sennacherib >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes? The column erected by Sennacherib >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today. He plainly says on it that Hezekiah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after he got the money. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> troops in a night. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> 186,000 troops. Chaldean historians of the same time said that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he >>>>>>>>>>>>> erected. He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the >>>>>>>>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons >>>>>>>>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the >>>>>>>>>>>>> army. >>>>>>>>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides >>>>>>>>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever >>>>>>>>>>> against the Assyrians. But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian >>>>>>>>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life. So I would say, let >>>>>>>>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it >>>>>>>>>>> their way. The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord >>>>>>>>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops. That is a matter of record. It is >>>>>>>>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. >>>>>>>>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests >>>>>>>>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of >>>>>>>>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is >>>>>>>>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old >>>>>>>>> Testament, but it says what it says. It says in three different >>>>>>>>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians >>>>>>>>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. >>>>>>>> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of >>>>>>>> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time >>>>>>> unless you are talking about the earth. Then you insist on absolute >>>>>>> time. >>>>>> Instead you make some ridiculous claims about the relativity of time >>>>>> completely without evidential basis, or... any rational support at all. >>>>>> The Earth is older than 6500 thousand years old. Much older. I'll go >>>>>> with the many independent lines of verification on that one.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> Well, that is fine, but why is relativity of time something that >>>>> exists except when talking about the earth? >>>> Because Earth isn't travelling at near light speed. I'm no physicist but...- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> So what makes you believe that motion is the only factor that would >>> affect time? >> Gee, I dunno. Until you back up your notions, it's hard to know what >> you're on about. >> >> What makes you think that you know better than every mainstream >> peer-reviewed physicist on the planet?- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Every mainstream peer reviewed physicist on the planet uses the > Lorentz equation. There is no way that the Lorentz equations could be > more than a close approximation. Why? Because you say so?
From: Mark K. Bilbo on 8 Jul 2008 12:38 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 6, 4:45 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 6, 1:53 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 6, 12:44 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2:31 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself? You were the one who thought of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust. You decide what you are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims? I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam. Why do you think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish. To an atheist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do. Since atheists >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well. The Assyrians came >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt. Judea was a little dot in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Egypt. So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah? Sennacherib >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes? The column erected by Sennacherib >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today. He plainly says on it that Hezekiah >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after he got the money. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> troops in a night. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 186,000 troops. Chaldean historians of the same time said that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> erected. He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> army. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever >>>>>>>>>>>>> against the Assyrians. But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian >>>>>>>>>>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life. So I would say, let >>>>>>>>>>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it >>>>>>>>>>>>> their way. The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord >>>>>>>>>>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops. That is a matter of record. It is >>>>>>>>>>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. >>>>>>>>>>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests >>>>>>>>>>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of >>>>>>>>>>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is >>>>>>>>>>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old >>>>>>>>>>> Testament, but it says what it says. It says in three different >>>>>>>>>>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians >>>>>>>>>>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. >>>>>>>>>> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of >>>>>>>>>> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time >>>>>>>>> unless you are talking about the earth. Then you insist on absolute >>>>>>>>> time. >>>>>>>> Instead you make some ridiculous claims about the relativity of time >>>>>>>> completely without evidential basis, or... any rational support at all. >>>>>>>> The Earth is older than 6500 thousand years old. Much older. I'll go >>>>>>>> with the many independent lines of verification on that one.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Well, that is fine, but why is relativity of time something that >>>>>>> exists except when talking about the earth? >>>>>> Because Earth isn't travelling at near light speed. I'm no physicist but...- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> So what makes you believe that motion is the only factor that would >>>>> affect time? >>>> Gee, I dunno. Until you back up your notions, it's hard to know what >>>> you're on about. >>>> What makes you think that you know better than every mainstream >>>> peer-reviewed physicist on the planet?- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Every mainstream peer reviewed physicist on the planet uses the >>> Lorentz equation. There is no way that the Lorentz equations could be >>> more than a close approximation. >> I don't have the grounding in physics to sensibly contend the point. I >> will delegate anything beyond my high-school physics to mainstream >> scientific consensus. You seem to be at odds with them, if you believe >> you really have a breakthrough for physics, you should publish so we may >> all benefit from the new knowledge.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > It cannot be done. I talk to scientists in sci.physics.relativity. > That is all I am ever going to do. You understanding physics is certainly something that "cannot be done".
From: Mark K. Bilbo on 8 Jul 2008 12:39
rbwinn wrote: > > Well, as the scientists of Galileo's day said, the safe way to go is > to say that the sun orbits the earth because that is what the majority > of scientists say. I can certainly forgive you for believing that. > Robert B. Winn No, the church said that. Also, they knew better. They were just trying to save face because they had long since realized they were wrong. |