Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: rbwinn on 9 Jul 2008 08:19 On Jul 8, 1:17 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 6, 9:15 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > > <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > >> On Jul 7, 1:13 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > >>> On Jul 6, 7:18 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > >>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > >>>> On Jul 5, 1:07 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 3, 11:58 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 3, 2:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 6:11 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > >>>>>>>>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 9:59 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 1:28 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > >>>>>>>>>>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 11:30 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 12:13 am, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 3:34 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 6:43 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 11:27 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:14 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:34 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net..nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 12:25 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 6:06�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:26:59 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:50?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jack wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never have believed in evolution. �I think it is a fable, just as > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul said it was. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Paul knew nothing about it. You mock the Bible with such silly > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> interpretations of it.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just believe what Paul said.  You seem a little upset that I do not > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe your fable. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Can you please identify what he said about it? Please?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 2 Tim 4:3  For the time will come when they will not endure sound > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teachers, having itching ears; > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 4  And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned unto fables. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't see any mention of evolution. I can't even see any description > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of the theory, or even a theistic strawman description. Can you help me > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> out? You made a claim that seems difficult to substantiate.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I think we are getting into subject matter that is too difficult > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for you.  Maybe we should go back to Hezekiah's tunnel. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm not struggling, maybe you could point out the verse where evolution > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is singled out. Maybe he's talking about the germ theory of disease. I'm > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> sure you believe that demons are behind illness, rather than pathogens.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, Paul said that in the last days, men would be turned to fables > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to explain things.  So today we see science explaining most things by > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fables. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Please explain how "evolution" counts as a fable?  And we'll show you > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how you understanding of evolution is horribly wrong. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Al- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, as Paul pointed out, in the last days men would be unable to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> endure sound doctrine and would devise a fable to try to explain the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> existence of mankind without a God. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That doesn't relate evolution to a fable. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Do you ever answer a question that isn't just from your own > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> imagination? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Al- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>> It happened just the way Paul said it would. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>>>> If you want to converse with the voices in your head, could you just > >>>>>>>>>>>> leave out alt.atheism in your replies?  Your posts are clearly not > >>>>>>>>>>>> related to anything you're clicking reply on. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Al- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>> As I understand it I have given a response to one of your posts that > >>>>>>>>>>> does not comform to atheistic rules. > >>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>> Those would be those rules about not lying blatantly? > >>>>>>>>>> They're more like guidelines, and more Human than specifically > >>>>>>>>>> atheist. > >>>>>>>>> Well, Al, I always try to tell the truth.  Sometimes I am given > >>>>>>>>> information by atheists that turns out to be false, such as a large > >>>>>>>>> portion of what I was taught in school. > >>>>>>>> I'd love some examples of these "atheistic lies". You won't provide any > >>>>>>>> though, right?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>> Well, we could start with Albert Einstein's description of > >>>>>>> transmission of light, which is not a lie, but turns out to be false. > >>>>>>> It requires a bona fide miracle to work.  This is one miracle that > >>>>>>> atheists never criticize. > >>>>>> Can we get a real physicist with a loony filter here to translate?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> The Lorentz equations are > >>>>>               x'=(x-vt)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) > >>>>>               y'=y > >>>>>               z'=z > >>>>>               t'=(t-vx/c^2)/sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) > >>>>> These equations require that a moving object contract in length in the > >>>>> direction of movement.  When the object reaches the speed of light its > >>>>> length is 0. > >>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>> An object can't reach the speed of light.  Get over it. > >>>> Al- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> So what about photons?  The Lorentz equations have them as little flat > >>> disks with circumference but no length. > >>> Robert B. Winn > >> And? > > >> Al- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Photons were invented by Einstein.  He did not visualize them that > > way, but that is how the Lorentz equations have them. > > Yes, he carved them out of purest phlogiston. Very good with his hands. > What are you saying?!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I am saying that before Einstein invented the idea of photons, there was a different theory of light which was called the corpuscular theory. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 9 Jul 2008 08:28 On Jul 8, 1:54�am, The Loan Arranger <no...(a)nowhere.invalid> wrote: > Steve O wrote: > > All we said was that, contrary to your claim that the crucifixion was > > the work of the devil, the crucifixion was essential for the redemption > > of sin, therefore Judas did the world a favour. > > Until quite some time after the event, Judas was considered to have done > Jesus a favour, by agreeing reluctantly to hand him over, according to > Jesus's wishes. > > It was only when the evolving church needed an antihero that Judas's > role was recast from tragic hero to traitor. > > TLA You atheists do not hesitate to portray youraelves as experts concerning what Christians believe. Judas is not going to do you any good. According to Peter in the book of Acts, Judas lost his bishopric. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 9 Jul 2008 08:30 On Jul 8, 2:41 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > BuddyThunder wrote: > > rbwinn wrote: > >> On Jul 7, 3:48�am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >>> BuddyThunder wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 6, 12:58 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> - > >>>>> Well, look spirit up in the dictionary. �If you do not believe in > >>>>> spirit, then there is no way to explain it to you. > >>>> I looked it up and found lots of vague notions of intermediaries > >>>> between > >>>> body and soul. That kind of nonsense. > >>>> So there is no meaningful definition of "spirit" in reality? You made a > >>>> positive claim about my "spirit", then choosing to define it in > >>>> terms of > >>>> itself. A kind of "spirit is spirit, what's wrong with you" argument.. > >>>> I'm none the wiser as to what you're actually referring to. > >>> The mediaeval understanding of spirit,was essentially what we today > >>> would call the mind, as distinct and somewhat independent of, the body. > >>> The concept of the 'objective observer' grew out of this particular > >>> worldview. Science owes religious philosophy that much, at least.- > >>> Hide quoted text - > > >>> - Show quoted text - > > >> Spirit could also be called intelligence. > > > Why not simply use "intelligence" then? It's a much less nebulous word. > > Intelligence is emergent from normal brain-activity (in many animals > > including humans) and doesn't seem to be supernatural at all. > > THat is ony one way to skin the cat. > And its probably more nearly correct to identify spirit with consciousness. > > Now whether consciousness is emergent from physical reality, or physical > reality is emergent from consciousness, is a very moot point indeed. > > Classic materialism assumes the former, but neuroscience and indeed > quantum effects suggest to some extent at least subjective physical > reality is more or less constructed by consciousnes. > > Now the materialist will say thet subjective physical reality is 100% > correlated with real physical reality, but the justifications of this > are about as concrete as taking the bible literally. I.e. there is no > real objective perception out there at all. > > Without modifying consciousness to see how that affects the perceptions > of physical reality it is not possible to say whether our notion of > physical reality exists outside of the way we happen to perceive it: > eastern mystical traditions which concentrate on the methodologies to > change consciousness, tend to claim that the apparent reality of the > physical world, is certainly not as secure as our normal perceptual > apparatus makes us feel. > > This was all part of the original Xtian/Judaic mysticism as well, but > sadly the church no longer plays in this arena. Neither does Islam, > outside of the Dervish movement. > > Which is all a sad waste, as, philosophically, there are, I think, great > strides in understanding of both science and religion to be made by > re-examining the basis on which we build our notions of what is real and > what is not, and in what way. > > The Church however, seems more preocupied with secular morality, than > philosophical investigation.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - So are you saying that morality is a bad thing? Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 9 Jul 2008 08:35 On Jul 8, 5:16�am, "Alex W." <ing...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote in message > > news:6dg2m3F2d900U1(a)mid.individual.net... > > > > > > > > > "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >news:7b8ae166-6369-43d9-9a73-74e6975c43c2(a)e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com.... > >> On Jul 6, 9:42 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>> rbwinn wrote: > >>> > On Jul 6, 5:06 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>> >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> >>> On Jul 6, 11:02?am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >>> >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>> >>>>> My definition of sin was willful disobedience of God. ?Bearing > >>> >>>>> false > >>> >>>>> witness about me would fall under the category of willful > >>> >>>>> disobedience > >>> >>>>> of God. > >>> >>>> In that case you are totally guilty of that exact sin. > >>> >>>> We have already established by your own definitions that you are a > >>> >>>> sinful person (onkl Jesus is free of sin you said) , and your lack > >>> >>>> of > >>> >>>> charity excommnunicates you as a Christian. (you wont talk to God > >>> >>>> on > >>> >>>> anyones behalf..) > >>> >>>> I think you are in deep trouble, dude. > >>> >>> No, I am fine. I say a little prayer every once in a while about > >>> >>> atheists. > >>> >> That one ever get answered? ;-)- Hide quoted text - > > >>> >> - Show quoted text - > > >>> > Well, I know one atheist who became a Christian. > > >>> Ah nice. I was just such a man. I eventually grew out of it though. :-)- > >>> Hide quoted text - > > >>> - Show quoted text - > > >> Well, you were just an atheist working undercover. > >> If you were going back to atheism, you were never really a believer. > >> Robert B. Winn > > > Every single atheist in this newsgroup started out as an atheist. (so did > > every Christian too, for that matter) > > Some of us converted to Christianity from atheism, then back again. > > I have a two year old who is an atheist, he has absolutely no belief in > > God whatsoever. > > I'm not sure that counts, seeing as he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter > Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and the Monster Under The Bed. > > IME, children are naturally credulous. �We pick explanations that fit the > available facts. �If our environment acts as if Santa Claus is real and we > have no evidence to doubt that assertion, we believe.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Or, like Steve O's little boy, if the parents say there is no God, they try to believe what they hear their parents say. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 9 Jul 2008 08:37
On Jul 8, 5:48 am, TT <t...(a)niburn.net> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 7, 9:00�am, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > >>news:57e16449-1aee-4fc5-9bf6-f16f8970ac2b(a)b1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com.... > > >>> Show me an atheist who wants to enter heaven, and I will answer your > >>> questions. �Otherwise, they are totally meaningless. �It is like you > >>> coming up to me on the street and saying, �I do not like you, and I > >>> will never enter your house, but I want to know everything you do. �If > >>> you do not want to enter, it is none of your business. > >>> Robert B. Winn > >> When you insist that your house is the only way a house should be, and that > >> our house is somehow evil and wrong, �and demand tax concessions on your > >> house, and call at our house asking us to change it to look like your house, > >> and tell ridiculous and impossible lies about how our house was built , and > >> dictate what type of house our children should grow up in by using > >> legislation, then it IS our business. > > >> -- > >> Steve O > > > Baloney, this is a democracy.  If there are more evil people, which > > there are, then evil people run the government, which they do.  What > > is it that you evil people want that you do not have? > > Robert B. Winn > >   Thanks for pointing out that if there are more evil people, and > there are also more christians, and more conservative controlled media > and government...then more evil people are christian...but we all knew > that already...didn't we?  I mean..the prison populations are virtually > 100% believers(Christ-INANITY being the top choice for convicts)- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - People in prison have more time to study the matter than most. However, once they are back in society after being released, their Christianity tends to disappear. Robert B. Winn |