Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: rbwinn on 9 Jul 2008 08:38 On Jul 8, 5:51 am, TT <t...(a)niburn.net> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 7, 2:44�pm, Linda Fox <linda...(a)ntlworld.com> wrote: > >> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:52:04 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >> wrote: > > >>> Well, I would not want to be relying on athiests if I ever got a > >>> heatstrroke. > >> You'd be relying on doctors. Many of whom are atheists. > > >> Linda ff > > > That is why I am careful not to get a heatstroke. > > Robert B. Winn > >   Judging by your posts...how would you know? People who get heatstroke usually die fairly soon. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 9 Jul 2008 08:41 On Jul 8, 6:44�am, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: > "Alex W." <ing...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > > news:6dh49mF2hjcqU1(a)mid.individual.net... > > > > > > > > > "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote in message > >news:6dg2m3F2d900U1(a)mid.individual.net... > > >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >>news:7b8ae166-6369-43d9-9a73-74e6975c43c2(a)e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com.... > >>> On Jul 6, 9:42 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>> > On Jul 6, 5:06 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> >> rbwinn wrote: > >>>> >>> On Jul 6, 11:02?am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >>>> >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>> >>>>> My definition of sin was willful disobedience of God. ?Bearing > >>>> >>>>> false > >>>> >>>>> witness about me would fall under the category of willful > >>>> >>>>> disobedience > >>>> >>>>> of God. > >>>> >>>> In that case you are totally guilty of that exact sin. > >>>> >>>> We have already established by your own definitions that you are a > >>>> >>>> sinful person (onkl Jesus is free of sin you said) , and your lack > >>>> >>>> of > >>>> >>>> charity excommnunicates you as a Christian. (you wont talk to God > >>>> >>>> on > >>>> >>>> anyones behalf..) > >>>> >>>> I think you are in deep trouble, dude. > >>>> >>> No, I am fine. I say a little prayer every once in a while about > >>>> >>> atheists. > >>>> >> That one ever get answered? ;-)- Hide quoted text - > > >>>> >> - Show quoted text - > > >>>> > Well, I know one atheist who became a Christian. > > >>>> Ah nice. I was just such a man. I eventually grew out of it though. > >>>> :-)- Hide quoted text - > > >>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>> Well, you were just an atheist working undercover. > >>> If you were going back to atheism, you were never really a believer. > >>> Robert B. Winn > > >> Every single atheist in this newsgroup started out as an atheist. (so did > >> every Christian too, for that matter) > >> Some of us converted to Christianity from atheism, then back again. > >> I have a two year old who is an atheist, he has absolutely no belief in > >> God whatsoever. > > > I'm not sure that counts, seeing as he believes in Santa Claus, the Easter > > Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and the Monster Under The Bed. > > Actually, he's also asantaist, abunnyist, afairyist and amonsterist too. > He's only two years old, Alex, he doesn't even know what those things are > yet, plus, we're very careful about what sort of fairy tales we tell him > anyway. > Besides, kids aren't dumb. > Any parent could see that kids operate on two levels anyway. > On one level, they like the fantasy/monster stories and enjoy being scared > by them, and on another level they are fully aware that it's only make- > believe. > They're not stupid but they enjoy the exciting pretence of it all > The only time it becomes stupid is when they carry that over to adulthood > and start believing that the magic stories are real. > > > > > IME, children are naturally credulous. > > Naturally trusting, not credulous. > There's a difference . > > >We pick explanations that fit the available facts. �If our environment acts > >as if Santa Claus is real and we have no evidence to doubt that assertion, > >we believe. > > It all depends on what Mom and Pop tell us, right? > When we're telling them about Jack and the beanstalk, they know we're not > being serious, but still go along with the story. > The problem occurs when we tell them about Jesus walking on water and > raising the dead, and they naturally assume we are being serious about that, > because we always make the distinction either directly or indirectly between > one magic story and the other. > "Now forget about all of those silly magic stories we told you - here's some > REAL magic stories" > The Santa story is simply training wheels for the God story any way. > It amazes me that at my daughters school, she can have science lessons one > minute, where she is taught to examine facts using the scientific method, > and in the next Religious Education lesson straight afterward, she is told > to abandon any critical thinking skills and simply believe. > Why does the education system insist on trying to confuse our children like > that? > > -- > Steve O > a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter) > B.A.A.W.A. > Convicted by Earthquack > Exempt from purgatory by papal indulgence- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Atheists control the education system. If they have problems in the system they have devised, it is to increase their control over the general population. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 9 Jul 2008 08:43 On Jul 8, 8:11�am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > Steve O wrote: > > > "Alex W." <ing...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > >news:6dh49mF2hjcqU1(a)mid.individual.net... > > >> "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote in message > >>news:6dg2m3F2d900U1(a)mid.individual.net... > > >>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > >>>news:7b8ae166-6369-43d9-9a73-74e6975c43c2(a)e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com.... > > >>>> On Jul 6, 9:42 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> > On Jul 6, 5:06 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>> >> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> >>> On Jul 6, 11:02?am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > >>>>> >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> >>>>> My definition of sin was willful disobedience of God. > >>>>> ?Bearing >>>>> false > >>>>> >>>>> witness about me would fall under the category of willful > >>>>> >>>>> disobedience > >>>>> >>>>> of God. > >>>>> >>>> In that case you are totally guilty of that exact sin. > >>>>> >>>> We have already established by your own definitions that you > >>>>> are a > >>>>> >>>> sinful person (onkl Jesus is free of sin you said) , and your > >>>>> lack >>>> of > >>>>> >>>> charity excommnunicates you as a Christian. (you wont talk to > >>>>> God >>>> on > >>>>> >>>> anyones behalf..) > >>>>> >>>> I think you are in deep trouble, dude. > >>>>> >>> No, I am fine. I say a little prayer every once in a while about > >>>>> >>> atheists. > >>>>> >> That one ever get answered? ;-)- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>> >> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>> > Well, I know one atheist who became a Christian. > > >>>>> Ah nice. I was just such a man. I eventually grew out of it though. > >>>>> :-)- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>> Well, you were just an atheist working undercover. > >>>> If you were going back to atheism, you were never really a believer. > >>>> Robert B. Winn > > >>> Every single atheist in this newsgroup started out as an atheist. (so > >>> did every Christian too, for that matter) > >>> Some of us converted to Christianity from atheism, then back again. > >>> I have a two year old who is an atheist, he has absolutely no belief > >>> in God whatsoever. > > >> I'm not sure that counts, seeing as he believes in Santa Claus, the > >> Easter Bunny, the Tooth Fairy and the Monster Under The Bed. > > > Actually, he's also asantaist, abunnyist, afairyist and amonsterist too.. > > He's only two years old, Alex, he doesn't even know what those things > > are yet, plus, we're very careful about what sort of fairy tales we tell > > him anyway. > > Besides, kids aren't dumb. > > Any parent could see that kids operate on two levels anyway. > > On one level, they like the fantasy/monster stories and enjoy being > > scared by them, and on another level they are fully aware that it's only > > make- believe. > > They're not stupid but they enjoy the exciting pretence of it all > > The only time it becomes stupid is when they carry that over to > > adulthood and start believing that the magic stories are real. > > >> IME, children are naturally credulous. > > > Naturally trusting, not credulous. > > There's a difference . > > >> We pick explanations that fit the available facts. �If our environment > >> acts as if Santa Claus is real and we have no evidence to doubt that > >> assertion, we believe. > > > It all depends on what Mom and Pop tell us, right? > > When we're telling them about Jack and the beanstalk, they know we're > > not being serious, but still go along with the story. > > The problem occurs when we tell them about Jesus walking on water and > > raising the dead, and they naturally assume we are being serious about > > that, because we always make the distinction either directly or > > indirectly between one magic story and the other. > > "Now forget about all of those silly magic stories we told you - here's > > some REAL magic stories" > > The Santa story is simply training wheels for the God story any way. > > It amazes me that at my daughters school, she can have science lessons > > one minute, where she is taught to examine facts using the scientific > > method, and in the next Religious Education lesson straight afterward, > > she is told to abandon any critical thinking skills and simply believe. > > Why does the education system insist on trying to confuse our children > > like that? > > No problem, provided she realises there is a sign over the RI classroom > saying 'abandon reason, all ye who enter here'- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - She is only going to that class so that you will have something to complain about. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 9 Jul 2008 08:54 On Jul 8, 9:37 am, "Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...(a)com.mkbilbo> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 6, 12:44 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 5, 2:31 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself?  You were the one who thought of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust.  You decide what you are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims?  I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam.  Why do you think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish.  To an atheist > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do.  Since atheists > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well.  The Assyrians came > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt.  Judea was a little dot in the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Egypt.  So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah?  Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes?  The column erected by Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today.  He plainly says on it that Hezekiah > >>>>>>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home > >>>>>>>>>>>>> after he got the money. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't > >>>>>>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 > >>>>>>>>>>>> troops in a night. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>> 186,000 troops.  Chaldean historians of the same time said that the > >>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and > >>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he > >>>>>>>>>>> erected.  He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the > >>>>>>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons > >>>>>>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the > >>>>>>>>>>> army. > >>>>>>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides > >>>>>>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever > >>>>>>>>> against the Assyrians.  But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian > >>>>>>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life.  So I would say, let > >>>>>>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it > >>>>>>>>> their way.  The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord > >>>>>>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops.  That is a matter of record.  It is > >>>>>>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. > >>>>>>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests > >>>>>>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of > >>>>>>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is > >>>>>>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old > >>>>>>> Testament, but it says what it says.  It says in three different > >>>>>>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians > >>>>>>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. > >>>>>> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of > >>>>>> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time > >>>>> unless you are talking about the earth.  Then you insist on absolute > >>>>> time. > >>>> Instead you make some ridiculous claims about the relativity of time > >>>> completely without evidential basis, or... any rational support at all. > >>>> The Earth is older than 6500 thousand years old. Much older. I'll go > >>>> with the many independent lines of verification on that one.- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> Well, that is fine, but why is relativity of time something that > >>> exists except when talking about the earth? > >> Because Earth isn't travelling at near light speed. I'm no physicist but...- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > So what makes you believe that motion is the only factor that would > > affect time? > > Oh *do* tell what else works...- Hide quoted text - > I don't have any equations except for motion yet, but indications are that other factors affect time also. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 9 Jul 2008 08:56
On Jul 8, 9:38 am, "Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...(a)com.mkbilbo> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 6, 1:53 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 6, 12:44 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 5, 2:31 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net..nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise..net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself?  You were the one who thought of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust.  You decide what you are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims?  I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam.  Why do you think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish..  To an atheist > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do.  Since atheists > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well.  The Assyrians came > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt.  Judea was a little dot in the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Egypt.  So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah?  Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes?  The column erected by Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today.  He plainly says on it that Hezekiah > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after he got the money. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> troops in a night. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>> 186,000 troops.  Chaldean historians of the same time said that the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he > >>>>>>>>>>>>> erected.  He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons > >>>>>>>>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> army. > >>>>>>>>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides > >>>>>>>>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever > >>>>>>>>>>> against the Assyrians.  But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian > >>>>>>>>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life.  So I would say, let > >>>>>>>>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it > >>>>>>>>>>> their way.  The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord > >>>>>>>>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops.  That is a matter of record.  It is > >>>>>>>>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. > >>>>>>>>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests > >>>>>>>>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of > >>>>>>>>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is > >>>>>>>>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old > >>>>>>>>> Testament, but it says what it says.  It says in three different > >>>>>>>>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians > >>>>>>>>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. > >>>>>>>> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of > >>>>>>>> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time > >>>>>>> unless you are talking about the earth.  Then you insist on absolute > >>>>>>> time. > >>>>>> Instead you make some ridiculous claims about the relativity of time > >>>>>> completely without evidential basis, or... any rational support at all. > >>>>>> The Earth is older than 6500 thousand years old. Much older. I'll go > >>>>>> with the many independent lines of verification on that one.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Well, that is fine, but why is relativity of time something that > >>>>> exists except when talking about the earth? > >>>> Because Earth isn't travelling at near light speed. I'm no physicist but...- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> So what makes you believe that motion is the only factor that would > >>> affect time? > >> Gee, I dunno. Until you back up your notions, it's hard to know what > >> you're on about. > > >> What makes you think that you know better than every mainstream > >> peer-reviewed physicist on the planet?- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Every mainstream peer reviewed physicist on the planet uses the > > Lorentz equation.  There is no way that the Lorentz equations could be > > more than a close approximation. > > Why? Because you say so?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Because they show that anything that reaches the speed of light has no length. Robert B. Winn |