Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: rbwinn on 9 Jul 2008 08:57 On Jul 8, 9:38 am, "Mark K. Bilbo" <gm...(a)com.mkbilbo> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 6, 4:45 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 6, 1:53 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 6, 12:44 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2:31 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf....(a)trashmail.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself?  You were the one who thought of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust.  You decide what you are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims?  I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam..  Why do you think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish.  To an atheist > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do..  Since atheists > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well.  The Assyrians came > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt.  Judea was a little dot in the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Egypt.  So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah?  Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes?  The column erected by Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today.  He plainly says on it that Hezekiah > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> after he got the money. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked.. That doesn't > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> troops in a night. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 186,000 troops.  Chaldean historians of the same time said that the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> erected.  He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> army. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever > >>>>>>>>>>>>> against the Assyrians.  But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian > >>>>>>>>>>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life.  So I would say, let > >>>>>>>>>>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it > >>>>>>>>>>>>> their way.  The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord > >>>>>>>>>>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops.  That is a matter of record.  It is > >>>>>>>>>>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. > >>>>>>>>>>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests > >>>>>>>>>>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of > >>>>>>>>>>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is > >>>>>>>>>>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old > >>>>>>>>>>> Testament, but it says what it says.  It says in three different > >>>>>>>>>>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians > >>>>>>>>>>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. > >>>>>>>>>> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of > >>>>>>>>>> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time > >>>>>>>>> unless you are talking about the earth.  Then you insist on absolute > >>>>>>>>> time. > >>>>>>>> Instead you make some ridiculous claims about the relativity of time > >>>>>>>> completely without evidential basis, or... any rational support at all. > >>>>>>>> The Earth is older than 6500 thousand years old. Much older. I'll go > >>>>>>>> with the many independent lines of verification on that one.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Well, that is fine, but why is relativity of time something that > >>>>>>> exists except when talking about the earth? > >>>>>> Because Earth isn't travelling at near light speed. I'm no physicist but...- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> So what makes you believe that motion is the only factor that would > >>>>> affect time? > >>>> Gee, I dunno. Until you back up your notions, it's hard to know what > >>>> you're on about. > >>>> What makes you think that you know better than every mainstream > >>>> peer-reviewed physicist on the planet?- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> Every mainstream peer reviewed physicist on the planet uses the > >>> Lorentz equation.  There is no way that the Lorentz equations could be > >>> more than a close approximation. > >> I don't have the grounding in physics to sensibly contend the point. I > >> will delegate anything beyond my high-school physics to mainstream > >> scientific consensus. You seem to be at odds with them, if you believe > >> you really have a breakthrough for physics, you should publish so we may > >> all benefit from the new knowledge.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > It cannot be done.  I talk to scientists in sci.physics.relativity.. > > That is all I am ever going to do. > > You understanding physics is certainly something that "cannot be done". You are certainly welcome to your own opinion, Mark. Robert B. Winn
From: James Burns on 9 Jul 2008 09:43 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 7, 8:08�pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: >>"rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >> >>Well, all you are doing is saying that God is guilty of >>murder every time a natural death occurs. >>---------------------------------------------- >>Yet you say your supposed god is responsible >>every time a baby is born. [...] > Well, since you are going to be a prosecutor who is > going to indict God, you need to know that I am not > a judge, so take your complaint elsewhere. Imagine someone who is not a prosecutor. Imagine someone (like me) who just wants to understand what you, not God, mean when you refer to "natural deaths". <copy-paste> I have trouble thinking about "natural deaths" in connection with God. For humans, calling a death "natural" means no one did anything to bring it about. But doesn't Gospel assure us : Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of : them will fall to the ground apart from the will of : your Father. [Matthew 10:29] Insurance companies would probably call a natural death an "act of God". What might a death that was NOT God's will be like? Maybe you could clarify what you mean by "natural death" in the context of God's activity in the world, whatever that activity may be. First, what would you count as a life saved by God? Spin some scenarios. It doesn't matter (for once) about evidence that any of these scenarios has ever occurred. I'm just asking for your opinion. What would you count as definitely a God-caused death? Almost as important: what would you count as a death that was definitely NOT God-caused? Some possibilities: Drowning in Noah's flood? Drowning in any other flood? A lightning strike? A lightning strike from an empty sky? Cancer that did not receive a prayed-for miraculous remission? Execution by church members doing God's will? Assuming that you choose to clarify what you are trying to say, thanks in advance. </copy-paste> Jim Burns
From: The Loan Arranger on 9 Jul 2008 10:05 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 8, 1:54�am, The Loan Arranger <no...(a)nowhere.invalid> wrote: >> Steve O wrote: >>> All we said was that, contrary to your claim that the crucifixion was >>> the work of the devil, the crucifixion was essential for the redemption >>> of sin, therefore Judas did the world a favour. >> Until quite some time after the event, Judas was considered to have done >> Jesus a favour, by agreeing reluctantly to hand him over, according to >> Jesus's wishes. >> >> It was only when the evolving church needed an antihero that Judas's >> role was recast from tragic hero to traitor. > > You atheists do not hesitate to portray youraelves as experts > concerning what Christians believe. Judas is not going to do you any > good. According to Peter in the book of Acts, Judas lost his > bishopric. I've said it once already, and I'll say it again: I have made no statements what my religious leanings might or might not be. TLA
From: The Loan Arranger on 9 Jul 2008 10:06 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 8, 5:51 am, TT <t...(a)niburn.net> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 7, 2:44�pm, Linda Fox <linda...(a)ntlworld.com> wrote: >>>> On Sun, 6 Jul 2008 19:52:04 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>> wrote: >>>>> Well, I would not want to be relying on athiests if I ever got a >>>>> heatstrroke. >>>> You'd be relying on doctors. Many of whom are atheists. >>>> Linda ff >>> That is why I am careful not to get a heatstroke. >>> Robert B. Winn >> Judging by your posts...how would you know? > > People who get heatstroke usually die fairly soon. You clearly know as much about medicine as you do about Biblical history. That's not a compliment, by the way. TLA
From: Ben Dolan on 9 Jul 2008 10:31
rbwinn <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> wrote: > You atheists do not hesitate to portray youraelves as experts > concerning what Christians believe. That's because you Christards are always blathering on about what you believe--without, of course, providing any evidence to support your ridiculous, puerile claims. |