Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 29 Jun 2008 22:43 On Jun 27, 10:40 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jun 22, 1:09 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > > rbwinn wrote: > > > On Jun 21, 4:17 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >> rbwinn wrote: > > >>> On Jun 21, 4:14 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>> On Jun 20, 3:40 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>> On Jun 19, 12:06�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>>>>> <snip> > > >>>>>>>>> Well, what you are saying is that the Biblical account of the Assyrian > > >>>>>>>>> invasion of Judea is fiction. �What part of it do you claim is > > >>>>>>>>> fiction? �So far we have discussed the earthen ramp and Hezekiah's > > >>>>>>>>> tunnel. �Are you still claiming that those are fiction? > > >>>>>>>> You're still claiming London doesn't exist, huh? > > >>>>>>>> I don't know either account, so really don't have an opinion. Have you > > >>>>>>>> considered that maybe neither account is accurate? If pressed, I would > > >>>>>>>> go with the explanation with the best evidential support. I don't have a > > >>>>>>>> reason to decide at this point. > > >>>>>>>> Happy to be agnostic on something! > > >>>>>>> OK, well, my opinion is that unless an atheist has an opinion about > > >>>>>>> Hezekiah's tunnel and the earthen ramp, it is a waste of time to try > > >>>>>>> to discuss the Bible with that person. > > >>>>>> Wow, why would you say that? It's a minor Biblical detail. > > >>>>>> They exist, is that opinion enough?- Hide quoted text - > > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>>>> Well, any person who will not admit that someing exists which can be > > >>>>> seen is not going to admit the existence of things which cannot be > > >>>>> seen. So conversation with atheists is totally unprofitable. > > >>>> No-one *ever* denied their existence. If they did, then you have > > >>>> consistently denied that London exists too. > > >>>> All we demand is logical consistency. Would you like to talk about Harry > > >>>> Potter again? ;-)- Hide quoted text - > > >>>> - Show quoted text - > > >>> No reason to talk about Harry Potter. There never was. > > >> Then there was no reason to talk about Hezekiah's tunnel or earthern > > >> ramps either. I agree with you. :-)- Hide quoted text - > > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > > You said you wanted to talk about the Bible. So now are you saying > > > that you only want to discuss the parts of the Bible that you select? > > > I don't remember saying that, maybe if you could point me to the post? I > > don't remember selecting the topic of discussion either, you brought up > > Hezekiah's tunnel and invading army ramps. Discuss what you like Robert, > > we might even find some common ground!- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Well, actions speak louder than words. You do not want to discuss > Hezekiah's tunnel. You do not want to discuss the earthen ramp. You > will discuss certain verses of the Bible you can find fault with. > Robert B. Winn What purpose would discussing sections of a book that people can find agreement on? Al
From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 29 Jun 2008 22:46 On Jun 27, 10:48 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jun 27, 12:31 am, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: > > > > > rbwinn wrote: > > > On Jun 26, 5:59 am, "W.A. Sawford" <was1...(a)cus.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > >> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008, rbwinn wrote: > > >>> On Jun 26, 5:05 am, RobertL <robertml...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: > > >>>> On Jun 26, 4:48 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > >>>>> On Jun 25, 7:27�pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: > > >>> Well, if no one proved it, then it was not proven. All you have done > > >>> is to say it was proven without showing any proof or anyone who is > > >>> suppsed to have done it. Atheists have said they have proven all > > >>> manner of things. Almost always it turns out to be something some > > >>> individual atheist put together that sounds good to other atheists. > > >>> Robert B. Winn > > >> I wasn't going to get involved in all this (unless it's Friday, which it > > >> isn't) but I can't stand it any longer (sigh). > > > >> 'Atheists have said they have proven all manner of things.' > > > >> Well, what exactly have they claimed to have proved, and which atheists > > >> have claimed it? Atheists don't actually need to 'prove' anything, > > >> because there is not a shred of evidence that god exists in the first > > >> place. The onus is not on atheists to prove the non-existence of god any > > >> more than the non-existence of the ravening bug-blatter beast of Traal. > > > >> Show me some real evidence and I'll think about belief. Although actual > > >> evidence would of course remove the need for belief in the first place... > > > >> Wendy > > > > Well, give me your address, and I can send you a Bible. So we will > > > run through what has been said so far. Atheists say that everything > > > in the Bible is mythology. > > > No they do not. > > > They sy it is a mixture of history, mythology and social mores.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Well, they do now that I have brought up the subject of Hezekiah's > tunnel and the earthen ramp, which can both be seen today. Before > that, they were saying there was nothing in the Bible that was not > mythology and nothing in the Bible that could be proven. Atheists say > whatever they think will fly. It just so happened that I knew about > Hezekiah's tunnel, so what they usually say was not sufficient for > this conversation. So now they are saying that the Bible has some > history in it, but they are not happy about having to say that. They > would rather be saying what they said when this conversation started, > that the Bible is nothing but mythology. > Robert B. Winn Ah, good old lying Robby again. Nowhere in the discussion did someone say "there was nothing in the Bible that was not mythology and nothing in the Bible that could be proven." You made that up as a strawman to argue over because you couldn't counter the objection someone raised to you claiming the bible must be true because it sold a lot of copies. And yes, I will keep calling you on this lie. Al
From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 29 Jun 2008 23:03 On Jun 28, 5:02 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jun 27, 7:02�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > > Chris Shore wrote: > > > "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message > > >news:621f5b5c-8511-45b7-ae9f-03c8a9914fd5(a)s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com.... > > > >> Well, they do now that I have brought up the subject of Hezekiah's > > >> tunnel and the earthen ramp, which can both be seen today. �Before > > >> that, they were saying there was nothing in the Bible that was not > > >> mythology and nothing in the Bible that could be proven. �Atheists say > > >> whatever they think will fly. �It just so happened that I knew about > > >> Hezekiah's tunnel, so what they usually say was not sufficient for > > >> this conversation. �So now they are saying that the Bible has some > > >> history in it, but they are not happy about having to say that. �They > > >> would rather be saying what they said when this conversation started, > > >> that the Bible is nothing but mythology. > > > > Of course the Bibel has some history in it. And of course some of it > > > is verifiable. So are various parts of various other ancient texts from > > > other > > > ancient historical/religious cultures. This prove absolutely nothing. > > > How is this difficult to understand? Three thousand posts suggest that > > it is.- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Well, there you go again denying the existence of Hezekiah's tunnel. > The existence of Hezekiah's tunnel proves that the Bible is accurate > aboput there being a conduit for water between Gihon Spring and the > Pool of Siloam. > Robert B. Winn A factoid that anyone from the area would have known about back then. Which proves that some sections of your fiction book were probably written by a Semite around the time that section of the book was set. It doesn't actually prove anything else. Can you not comprehend that? Al
From: rbwinn on 29 Jun 2008 23:05 On Jun 29, 1:14 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 29, 12:22 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jun 28, 12:50�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> Jack wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who > >>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose > >>>>>>>>>>>> their > >>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. > >>>>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to > >>>>>>>>>>> believe. > >>>>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate > >>>>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy.. > >>>>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be > >>>>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals > >>>>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. > >>>>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. > >>>>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? > >>>>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact > >>>>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. > >>>> So? > >>>> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> I never have believed in evolution.  I think it is a fable, just as > >>> Paul said it was. > >> Classic, got a scripture for that?- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Yes, we are still on the scripture in Isaiah that says that a tunnel > > was dug as a conduit for water between Gihon spring and the pool of > > Siloam. > > Liar. Where did Paul tell you that evolution is a fable? Back up > something. Just one thing...- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 29 Jun 2008 23:06
On Jun 29, 1:15 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jun 29, 12:23 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jun 28, 7:00�am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:47:11 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>> On Jun 27, 9:26�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>> ... > >>>>>>> Well, I was the one who pointed out that the Bible in three books of > >>>>>>> the Old Testament describes the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel.. > >>>>>>> Atheists still do not believe Hezekiah's tunnel exists. > >>>>>> And you think London is a myth.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> No, I actually have a friend from London. �He says that Harry Potter > >>>>> does not exist. �I think you should actually consider that > >>>>> possibility. � I know this might be difficult for an atheist to do. > >>>> There is a tunnel called Hezekiah's tunnel. That does not mean that the > >>>> supposed authors of the Bible ever existed or wrote what was claimed > >>>> that they wrote or that what was written ever happened. > >>>> A few random facts in the Bible does not make the Bible true. This has > >>>> been explained to you, so, it appears to me that you are just being > >>>> stiff necked in playing your dishonest game. You mock the God you claim > >>>> to worship with this behavior. Maybe you are just playing Loki. > >>> Well, the tunnel got there some way.  Why do you believe the Biblical > >>> account is wrong? > >> Because it's extraordinary supernatural claims are totally unsupported > >> by evidence.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Well, the Bible says that the Jews took tools and dug the tunnel by > > hand just before the Assyrian seige of Jerusalem in 701 B.C.  Why do > > you think that was a supernatural event? The same thing could be done > > today if you could find people wiling to do that much work. > > If there's no connection to the supernatural in the account, then why do > you think the supernatural draws any support from it?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - God does not need support. Do you think God is a politician? Robert B. Winn |