Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: rbwinn on 29 Jun 2008 18:15 On Jun 28, 6:06�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:26:59 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > wrote in alt.atheism: > > > > > > >On Jun 28, 12:50?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >> wrote in alt.atheism: > > >> >On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> >> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >> >> wrote in alt.atheism: > > >> >> >On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> >> >> rbwinn wrote: > >> >> >> > On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> >> >> >> Jack wrote: > >> >> >> >>>> I am upset by *people* who > >> >> >> >>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose > >> >> >> >>>> their > >> >> >> >>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. > >> >> >> >>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to > >> >> >> >>> believe. > >> >> >> >> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate > >> >> >> >> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. > > >> >> >> > Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be > >> >> >> > turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals > >> >> >> > like the story about monkeys turning into humans. > > >> >> >> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. > > >> >> >In what way am I ignorant about evolution? > > >> >> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact > >> >> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> - Show quoted text - > > >> >Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. > > >> So? > > >> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > >I never have believed in evolution. �I think it is a fable, just as > >Paul said it was. > > Paul knew nothing about it. You mock the Bible with such silly > interpretations of it.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - I just believe what Paul said. You seem a little upset that I do not believe your fable. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 29 Jun 2008 18:19 On Jun 29, 12:11�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > Smiler wrote: > > "BuddyThunder" <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in message > >news:4866a92b$1(a)clear.net.nz... > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jun 28, 12:19 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jun 27, 6:38 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jun 22, 12:58 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jun 21, 5:07 pm, Darrell Stec <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 4:22 pm, Darrell Stec > >>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 3:35 am, Darrell Stec > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 19, 8:22 am, Darrell Stec > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 3:50 pm, Darrell Stec > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 10:11?am, Darrell Stec > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 17, 2:53?am, Darrell Stec > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I analyzed the Bible. ?What I find is that God > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not want His children to die and just cease to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or to be punished forever, so He sent his Son to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcome death. ?Because of wickedness, we see today > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that most people will reject God's gift of eternal > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me ask you a question. ?Who would know more about > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LDS > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theology, one of the churches twelve apostles, or a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hari > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Krishna monk> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Who do you think would know more about LDS theology? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Why > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you ask? Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evasion noted. ?Why are you afraid to answer a couple of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easy > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions? Why do you think I would ask? ?Could it be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer might be obvious? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if the answer is obvious, then there was no reason > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask the question. �Go ahead and say whatever you were > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say. Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you afraid to tell us whether or not one of the 12 > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apostles of the Mormon church would know more about LDS > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theology > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than an Hari Krishna monk? What are you afraid of? �I know > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer, but I don't know if you do and that is why I am > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> asking. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Later, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Darrell Stec � � �dars...(a)neo.rr.com > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, why don't you just make up your own mind about that? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have made an informed and knowledgeable opinion.. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to find out what you believe (asking what you think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unfair because you are shooting without bullets) to be the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you afraid to answer the question? �Is it because it > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never been discussed in bible school and you have nothing to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copy > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and paste? Go ask your bishop what he thinks, as you allow > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to think for you until you pull stupid things out of thin > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> air. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, why don't you ask my bishop yourself? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is his name, email address, physical address and phone > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> number and > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will ask him. �I'll also send him a list of your more insane > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> postings. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I told you athiests > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before that I was not going to be your researcher. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What research do you need to do to answer a question as to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apostle of your church's council of twelve would know more > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about LDS > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy than a Hari Krishna monk? �That is a person > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion. �Or do > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you mean that nobody told you what to think in regard to the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> question > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so you can't copy and paste it? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you want to know what I believe,I can give you name to the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missionaries as a referral , and they can tell you what I > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beleive. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you give us your opinion yourself? �Why are you > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> having so > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many problems answering an easy question? �What are you afraid > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, the General Authorities of our church have counseled us > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to avoid > >>>>>>>>>>>>> contention with other churches. �So if you have some bone to > >>>>>>>>>>>>> pick with > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hare Kirshna church, leave me out of it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you avoiding the question? �Why is it so difficult for > >>>>>>>>>>>> you to > >>>>>>>>>>>> answer the question? �It is a simple one. �Whom do you think > >>>>>>>>>>>> knows more > >>>>>>>>>>>> about LDS theology, one of the twelve apostles making up the > >>>>>>>>>>>> council of > >>>>>>>>>>>> the LDS church or a Hari Krishna monk? �What are you afraid of. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Certainly there is no injunction in your church against > >>>>>>>>>>>> answering the > >>>>>>>>>>>> question. �Why are you avoiding it? > >>>>>>>>>>> I am not avoiding it. �You said the answer is obvious, so > >>>>>>>>>>> obviously, > >>>>>>>>>>> you already know the answer. > >>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > >>>>>>>>>> I know the answer to the question. �I do not know what YOUR answer > >>>>>>>>>> to the > >>>>>>>>>> question is because you are too afraid to answer a simple, direct > >>>>>>>>>> question. > >>>>>>>>>> Why is that? �I want to know what YOUR answer to the question is. > >>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>> Well, just write to church headquarters in Salt Lake City and get > >>>>>>>>> an > >>>>>>>>> official answer from the church. �Anything I could tell you would > >>>>>>>>> only > >>>>>>>>> be my own opinion. > >>>>>>>> Anything they tell us would only be theirs.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Well, so you are going to make up something then and attribute it to > >>>>>>> us. �We have seen this before. > >>>>>> I'm not sure where this claim comes from, can you tell me?- Hide > >>>>>> quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> It came from me. > >>>> Maybe if you could show me where I did that? Why won't you back up > >>>> anything you say?- Hide quoted text - > > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> Well, for instance, I said that Hezekiah's tunnel exists, and you and > >>> other atheists claimed that I had said that London, England, does not > >>> exist. �I did not say a thing about London, England. �It all came from > >>> atheists. > >> No, it follows by the application of your logic. If you don't like the > >> results then re-think the logic. <shrug> I guess it just depends on how > >> consistent you want to be. > > > From his posts I can tell he wants to be consistently stupid, consistently > > disengenous, consistently untruthfull and consistently illogical. > > Such is the effect of religion on some. > > Maybe it's the only way that belief can be maintained? I would suggest > that faith requiring irrational thought, compartmentalisation and > bare-faced lies is not worth defending!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, there is the beauty of the gospel. We do not need to defend the faith. All we need to do is accept the atonement of Christ and keep his commandments. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 29 Jun 2008 18:29 On Jun 29, 8:44�am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:26:23 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > wrote in alt.atheism: > > > > > > >On Jun 29, 12:13�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >> > On Jun 28, 2:15 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> >> rbwinn wrote: > >> >>> On Jun 28, 7:04?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> >>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:01:05 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >> >>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >> >>>>> On Jun 28, 12:21?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >> >>>> ... > >> >>>>>>> No, you were trying to hedge your bets. ?You do not believe in faith, > >> >>>>>>> but you are "on the edge of faith", so that counts in case you need to > >> >>>>>>> have faith. ?I know how atheists think. > >> >>>>>> Why would I need to hedge my bets? I believe in faith, I just don't > >> >>>>>> think it's rational. And believe me, you really *don't* know how > >> >>>>>> atheists think.- Hide quoted text - > >> >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >> >>>>> I know far better than atheists how they think. ?They have made a > >> >>>>> wrong choice, so their options are limited. > >> >>>> Your lies are indefensible. You celebrate the evil that you have fallen > >> >>>> into. > >> >>> I thought you atheists did not believe evil exists. �If there is no > >> >>> devil, everything is good, isn't it? > >> >> Evil sounds like a religious concept to me, but why would you think that > >> >> we can't differentiate right from wrong. Another strawman? > > >> >> We seem to be able to discuss without lying, can you?- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> - Show quoted text - > > >> > Sure. �A while back you were saying that there was nothing wrong with > >> > killing children before they are born. �So are you saying that killing > >> > children before they are born is a good thing? > > >> Where did I say that? Can you show me, or is that another lie? Abortion > >> is deeply unpleasant, however I don't think it should be banned. They're > >> not children yet, by the way.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > >Not children yet? �What do you think they are? > > Embryos and fetuses.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - So you are saying that people who call them unborn children are lying? Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 29 Jun 2008 18:42 On Jun 29, 8:48�am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:48:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > wrote in alt.atheism: > > > > > > >On Jun 29, 12:22�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >> > On Jun 28, 12:50?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> >> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >> >> wrote in alt.atheism: > > >> >>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >> >>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >> >>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >> >>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >> >>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> >>>>>>>> Jack wrote: > >> >>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who > >> >>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose > >> >>>>>>>>>> their > >> >>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. > >> >>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to > >> >>>>>>>>> believe. > >> >>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate > >> >>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. > >> >>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be > >> >>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals > >> >>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. > >> >>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. > >> >>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? > >> >>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact > >> >>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - > >> >>>> - Show quoted text - > >> >>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. > >> >> So? > > >> >> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> - Show quoted text - > > >> > I never have believed in evolution. �I think it is a fable, just as > >> > Paul said it was. > > >> Classic, got a scripture for that?- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > >Yes, we are still on the scripture in Isaiah that says that a tunnel > >was dug as a conduit for water between Gihon spring and the pool of > >Siloam. > > So, where is the evidence that the entire story is correct? The tunnel, > as you know, is not evidence that the story is correct.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Well, so you are still taking the position that there is no tunnel. If the tunnel exists, then it is evidence that the Biblical account of the construction of the tunnel is correct. So it seems to me to depend on whether or not there is a tunnel there. Jerusalem tour guides say the tunnel is there and take tourists on tours through it. Atheists say it is not there because the Bible describes its construction. So we are discussing a religious difference. Atheists want solid rock where tour guides say the tunnel is. They seem to believe that if they have enough faith in atheism, the tunnel will change to solid rock. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 29 Jun 2008 18:45
On Jun 29, 9:46�am, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:23:07 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > wrote: > > >No, I do not have difficulty following conversations. �Atheists said > >that there was nothing in the Bible that could be proven. > > No atheist claims such a ridiculous thing. Obviously there are things > in the Bible that can be proven. It is trivial, for example to > demonstrate the existence of the city of Jerusalem, so I don't know > why you're so insistent on the existence of a particular tunnel being > significant. > > What atheists state cannot be proven are any of the *supernatural* > claims in the Bible. Just as the historical existence of Troy does not > prove that Eris, the goddess of chaos, rolled a golden apple inscribed > "To the fairest" into a banquet on Olympus to set the events in motion > that resulted in the Trojan War, the historical existence of Jerusalem > does not prove that Jesus was crucified there and rose from the dead. > What you think your tunnel might possibly prove I can't even begin to > guess. > > > I said that > >three books of the Old Testament describe the construction of > >Hezekiah's tunnel, and sure enough, there is a tunnel right where the > >Bible says there is. > > Again, so what? > > > �Atheists say, That does not prove there was a > >tunnel dug where the Bible says there was because atheists do not > >believe anything in the Bible. > > Poppycock. I doubt there's an atheist on the planet who will deny the > historical existence of Jerusalem, Pontius Pilate, Herod, or any > number of other things mentioned in the Bible. > > > So far that has been the extent of > >this conversation. > > The extent of the conversation has been you continuing to miss the > point that the fact that the Bible mentions some cities and historical > figures that actually existed is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of > its other claims. That Bethlehem exists says nothing about whether > Jesus was born there and laid in a manger wrapped in swaddling > clothes. Well, you claim to believe in Jerusalem even though it is mentioned in the Bible. So why is it so impossible for an atheist to admit the existence of Hezekiah's tunnel? Robert B. Winn |