Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Steve O on 30 Jun 2008 21:37 "rbwinn" <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> wrote in message news:6b4ffde3-6dd2-42e1-ae8b-31dca39a4aee(a)f24g2000prh.googlegroups.com... > On Jun 30, 1:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >> > On Jun 29, 11:50 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> >> rbwinn wrote: >> >>> On Jun 29, 10:57�am, "Alex W." <ing...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> >>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >> >>>>news:1c31d316-2b91-43f6-b6c0-3fb4dbf97774(a)z72g2000hsb.googlegroups.com... >> >>>> On Jun 29, 12:13 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> >>>>> rbwinn wrote: >> >>>>>> On Jun 28, 2:15 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> >>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >> >>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:04?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:01:05 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn >> >>>>>>>>> <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >> >>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >> >>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:21?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> >> >>>>>>>>>> wrote: >> >>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >> >>>>>>>>> ... >> >>>>>>>>>>>> No, you were trying to hedge your bets. ?You do not believe >> >>>>>>>>>>>> in >> >>>>>>>>>>>> faith, >> >>>>>>>>>>>> but you are "on the edge of faith", so that counts in case >> >>>>>>>>>>>> you >> >>>>>>>>>>>> need to >> >>>>>>>>>>>> have faith. ?I know how atheists think. >> >>>>>>>>>>> Why would I need to hedge my bets? I believe in faith, I just >> >>>>>>>>>>> don't >> >>>>>>>>>>> think it's rational. And believe me, you really *don't* know >> >>>>>>>>>>> how >> >>>>>>>>>>> atheists think.- Hide quoted text - >> >>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >> >>>>>>>>>> I know far better than atheists how they think. ?They have >> >>>>>>>>>> made a >> >>>>>>>>>> wrong choice, so their options are limited. >> >>>>>>>>> Your lies are indefensible. You celebrate the evil that you >> >>>>>>>>> have >> >>>>>>>>> fallen >> >>>>>>>>> into. >> >>>>>>>> I thought you atheists did not believe evil exists. If there is >> >>>>>>>> no >> >>>>>>>> devil, everything is good, isn't it? >> >>>>>>> Evil sounds like a religious concept to me, but why would you >> >>>>>>> think >> >>>>>>> that >> >>>>>>> we can't differentiate right from wrong. Another strawman? >> >>>>>>> We seem to be able to discuss without lying, can you?- Hide >> >>>>>>> quoted >> >>>>>>> text - >> >>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >> >>>>>> Sure. A while back you were saying that there was nothing wrong >> >>>>>> with >> >>>>>> killing children before they are born. So are you saying that >> >>>>>> killing >> >>>>>> children before they are born is a good thing? >> >>>>> Where did I say that? Can you show me, or is that another lie? >> >>>>> Abortion >> >>>>> is deeply unpleasant, however I don't think it should be banned. >> >>>>> They're >> >>>>> not children yet, by the way.- Hide quoted text - >> >>>>> - Show quoted text - >> >>>> Not children yet? �What do you think they are? >> >>>> =============== >> >>>> Technically speaking, they are parasites living off a grown female.- >> >>>> Hide quoted text - >> >>>> - Show quoted text - >> >>> Well, thank you for your answer, Alex. So human beings are nothing >> >>> except parasites in atheist theology. >> >> Read it again, this time trying to understand as you go.- Hide quoted >> >> text - >> >> > I understood it exactly the first time I read it. >> >> Then why the misrepresentation of what was said? No implication was made >> that "human beings are nothing except parasites". You misunderstood, or >> lied. Which was it?- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > This guy says that a baby in its mother's womb is nothing but a > parasite on the mother, and you say, No implication was made that > "human beings are nothing except parasites". I believe that if > something is a parasite when it is in its mother's womb, then it is a > parasite after it leaves its mother's womb. A parasite is never > anything except a parasite. > Robert B. Winn Please try an educate yourself and read up a little on the parasitical nature of the cytoblast before you really make a fool of yourself. Again. -- Steve O a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter) B.A.A.W.A. Convicted by Earthquack, Exempt from purgatory by papal indulgence "I have a miraculous picture of Jesus - if you look really closely at the face, you can see a burnt tortilla"
From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 30 Jun 2008 21:45 On Jun 30, 5:20 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > Alex W. wrote: > > "BuddyThunder" <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in message > >news:4867eccb$1(a)clear.net.nz... > >> Alex W. wrote: > >>> "BuddyThunder" <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in message > >>>news:486737ee$1(a)clear.net.nz... > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > > >>>>> I know. Abortion was imported here from Europe. > >>>> I'm not European either. <shrug> > >>> Pakeha? > >> Bingo! :-) > > > That's not a Maori word. > > Is it? > > Aye, that it is, but no-one's quite sure where it came from. In the > wider sense it just means non-Maori New Zealander. I recently discovered > a thimbleful Maori blood in my veins, but not much! Um, I think he meant "Bingo". I could be wrong. Pakeha could have any of hundreds of different derivations, and considering the penchant for very long names shortened down to simplified versions, it could have originally meant anything. For all we know it's the Maori equivalent of Seppo. Al
From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 30 Jun 2008 21:45 On Jun 30, 5:21 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jun 29, 7:43 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > > > > <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > > On Jun 27, 10:40 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 22, 1:09 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > > rbwinn wrote: > > > > > On Jun 21, 4:17 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>> On Jun 21, 4:14 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>> On Jun 20, 3:40 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>>>> On Jun 19, 12:06�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>> <snip> > > > > >>>>>>>>> Well, what you are saying is that the Biblical account of the Assyrian > > > > >>>>>>>>> invasion of Judea is fiction. �What part of it do you claim is > > > > >>>>>>>>> fiction? �So far we have discussed the earthen ramp and Hezekiah's > > > > >>>>>>>>> tunnel. �Are you still claiming that those are fiction? > > > > >>>>>>>> You're still claiming London doesn't exist, huh? > > > > >>>>>>>> I don't know either account, so really don't have an opinion. Have you > > > > >>>>>>>> considered that maybe neither account is accurate? If pressed, I would > > > > >>>>>>>> go with the explanation with the best evidential support. I don't have a > > > > >>>>>>>> reason to decide at this point. > > > > >>>>>>>> Happy to be agnostic on something! > > > > >>>>>>> OK, well, my opinion is that unless an atheist has an opinion about > > > > >>>>>>> Hezekiah's tunnel and the earthen ramp, it is a waste of time to try > > > > >>>>>>> to discuss the Bible with that person. > > > > >>>>>> Wow, why would you say that? It's a minor Biblical detail. > > > > >>>>>> They exist, is that opinion enough?- Hide quoted text - > > > > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > > > >>>>> Well, any person who will not admit that someing exists which can be > > > > >>>>> seen is not going to admit the existence of things which cannot be > > > > >>>>> seen. So conversation with atheists is totally unprofitable. > > > > >>>> No-one *ever* denied their existence. If they did, then you have > > > > >>>> consistently denied that London exists too. > > > > >>>> All we demand is logical consistency. Would you like to talk about Harry > > > > >>>> Potter again? ;-)- Hide quoted text - > > > > >>>> - Show quoted text - > > > > >>> No reason to talk about Harry Potter. There never was. > > > > >> Then there was no reason to talk about Hezekiah's tunnel or earthern > > > > >> ramps either. I agree with you. :-)- Hide quoted text - > > > > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > > > > You said you wanted to talk about the Bible. So now are you saying > > > > > that you only want to discuss the parts of the Bible that you select? > > > > > I don't remember saying that, maybe if you could point me to the post? I > > > > don't remember selecting the topic of discussion either, you brought up > > > > Hezekiah's tunnel and invading army ramps. Discuss what you like Robert, > > > > we might even find some common ground!- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > Well, actions speak louder than words. You do not want to discuss > > > Hezekiah's tunnel. You do not want to discuss the earthen ramp. You > > > will discuss certain verses of the Bible you can find fault with. > > > Robert B. Winn > > > What purpose would discussing sections of a book that people can find > > agreement on? > > > Al- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > That is what we do at church every Sunday. Why don't you join us, Al? > Robert B. Winn Because I have a brain that still works. Al
From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 30 Jun 2008 22:06 On Jun 30, 11:58 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jun 29, 9:30 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > > > > <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > > On Jun 30, 8:19 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 29, 12:11�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > > Smiler wrote: > > > > > "BuddyThunder" <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote in message > > > > >news:4866a92b$1(a)clear.net.nz... > > > > >> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>> On Jun 28, 12:19 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>> On Jun 27, 6:38 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>>>> On Jun 22, 12:58 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>> On Jun 21, 5:07 pm, Darrell Stec <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > > >>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 4:22 pm, Darrell Stec > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 20, 3:35 am, Darrell Stec > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 19, 8:22 am, Darrell Stec > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 3:50 pm, Darrell Stec > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 18, 10:11?am, Darrell Stec > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 17, 2:53?am, Darrell Stec > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <darrell_s...(a)webpagesorcery.com> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I analyzed the Bible. ?What I find is that God > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not want His children to die and just cease to > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> be > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or to be punished forever, so He sent his Son to > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> overcome death. ?Because of wickedness, we see today > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that most people will reject God's gift of eternal > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> life. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me ask you a question. ?Who would know more about > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> LDS > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theology, one of the churches twelve apostles, or a > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hari > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Krishna monk> > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Who do you think would know more about LDS theology? > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ?Why > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> do you ask? Robert B. Winn > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Evasion noted. ?Why are you afraid to answer a couple of > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> easy > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> questions? Why do you think I would ask? ?Could it be > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer might be obvious? > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, if the answer is obvious, then there was no reason > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ask the question. �Go ahead and say whatever you were > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> say. Robert B. Winn > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you afraid to tell us whether or not one of the 12 > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> apostles of the Mormon church would know more about LDS > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> theology > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> than an Hari Krishna monk? What are you afraid of? �I know > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> answer, but I don't know if you do and that is why I am > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> asking. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Later, > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Darrell Stec � � �dars...(a)neo.rr.com > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, why don't you just make up your own mind about that? > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I already have made an informed and knowledgeable opinion. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trying to find out what you believe (asking what you think > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would be > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unfair because you are shooting without bullets) to be the > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> case. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you afraid to answer the question? �Is it because it > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> never been discussed in bible school and you have nothing to > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> copy > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and paste? Go ask your bishop what he thinks, as you allow > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> others > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to think for you until you pull stupid things out of thin > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> air. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, why don't you ask my bishop yourself? > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What is his name, email address, physical address and phone > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> number and > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I will ask him. �I'll also send him a list of your more insane > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> postings. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I told you athiests > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> before that I was not going to be your researcher. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What research do you need to do to answer a question as to > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> whether an > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> apostle of your church's council of twelve would know more > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> about LDS > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> philosophy than a Hari Krishna monk? �That is a person > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> opinion. �Or do > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> you mean that nobody told you what to think in regard to the > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> question > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> so you can't copy and paste it? > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you want to know what I believe,I can give you name to the > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> missionaries as a referral , and they can tell you what I > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beleive. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why can't you give us your opinion yourself? �Why are you > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> having so > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many problems answering an easy question? �What are you afraid > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of? > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, the General Authorities of our church have counseled us > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> to avoid > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> contention with other churches. �So if you have some bone to > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> pick with > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> the Hare Kirshna church, leave me out of it. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Why are you avoiding the question? �Why is it so difficult for > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> you to > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> answer the question? �It is a simple one. �Whom do you think > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> knows more > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> about LDS theology, one of the twelve apostles making up the > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> council of > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> the LDS church or a Hari Krishna monk? �What are you afraid of. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> Certainly there is no injunction in your church against > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> answering the > > > > >>>>>>>>>>>> question. �Why are you avoiding it? > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> I am not avoiding it. �You said the answer is obvious, so > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> obviously, > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> you already know the answer. > > > > >>>>>>>>>>> Robert B. Winn > > > > >>>>>>>>>> I know the answer to the question. �I do not know what YOUR answer > > > > >>>>>>>>>> to the > > > > >>>>>>>>>> question is because you are too afraid to answer a simple, direct > > > > >>>>>>>>>> question. > > > > >>>>>>>>>> Why is that? �I want to know what YOUR answer to the question is. > > > > >>>>>>>>>> -- > > > > >>>>>>>>> Well, just write to church headquarters in Salt Lake City and get > > > > >>>>>>>>> an > > > > >>>>>>>>> official answer from the church. �Anything I could tell you would > > > > >>>>>>>>> only > > > > >>>>>>>>> be my own opinion. > > > > >>>>>>>> Anything they tell us would only be theirs.- Hide quoted text - > > > > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > > > >>>>>>> Well, so you are going to make up something then and attribute it to > > > > >>>>>>> us. �We have seen this before. > > > > >>>>>> I'm not sure where this claim comes from, can you tell me?- Hide > > > > >>>>>> quoted text - > > > > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > > > > >>>>> It came from me. > > > > >>>> Maybe if you could show me where I did that? Why won't you back up > > > > >>>> anything you say?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > >>>> - Show quoted text - > > > > >>> Well, for instance, I said that Hezekiah's tunnel exists, and you and > > > > >>> other atheists claimed that I had said that London, England, does not > > > > >>> exist. �I did not say a thing about London, England. �It all came from > > > > >>> atheists. > > > > >> No, it follows by the application of your logic. If you don't like the > > > > >> results then re-think the logic. <shrug> I guess it just depends on how > > > > >> consistent you want to be. > > > > > > From his posts I can tell he wants to be consistently stupid, consistently > > > > > disengenous, consistently untruthfull and consistently illogical. > > > > > Such is the effect of religion on some. > > > > > Maybe it's the only way that belief can be maintained? I would suggest > > > > that faith requiring irrational thought, compartmentalisation and > > > > bare-faced lies is not worth defending!- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > Well, there is the beauty of the gospel. We do not need to defend > > > the faith. All we need to do is accept the atonement of Christ and > > > keep his commandments. > > > Robert B. Winn > > > Well, I'd say that pretty much lends credence to that idea that faith > > and critical thinking are mutually exclusive. > > > Al- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - > > Uh huh. So let's see your proof that we need to defend faith. Jesus > Christ says all we need to do is follow his teachings. > Robert B. Winn OK, that's pretty retarded. Let's see your proof that we need proof that you need to defend faith. We can go around in circles some more if you want. Al
From: Branimir Maksimovic on 30 Jun 2008 22:40
On May 27, 4:20 am, mitch.nicolas.raem...(a)gmail.com wrote: > No. I don't think so. > > "I want to know how God created this universe. All the rest are just > details." Albert Einstein > > Mitch Raemsch; Twice Nobel Laureate 2008 We do not know if it exists, yet we claim that we know everything about it. greets, Branimir. |