Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) on 1 Jul 2008 03:40 On Jul 1, 5:29 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > On Jun 30, 6:36 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > > > > <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > > On Jun 30, 5:19 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > > > On Jun 29, 7:42 pm, "Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al)" > > > > <alwh...(a)optusnet.com.au> wrote: > > > > On Jun 27, 10:36 pm, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: > > > > > > On Jun 22, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > > > > rbwinn wrote: > > > > > > > On Jun 21, 4:09 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > > > > > > >> rbwinn wrote: > > > > > > >>> On Jun 21, 8:16�am, "Alex W." <ing...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > > > > >>>> "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote in message > > > > > > >>>>news:6c4ja8F3erpl2U1(a)mid.individual.net... > > > > > > >>>>> If you think that Harry Potter is fiction then you must also think that > > > > > > >>>>> London doesn't exist right? > > > > > > >>>>> You'd better tell that to all of the people who live there, it may come as > > > > > > >>>>> a surprise to them. > > > > > > >>>> Like the esteemed Mr Winn Esq, London councils have no doubt whatsoever > > > > > > >>>> about the existence of London. �At least, that is what they profess when > > > > > > >>>> they send out council tax demands. > > > > > > >>> Taxes. Well, that is something that should convince some atheists. > > > > > > >>> Taxes are something they will never deny. > > > > > > >> Are taxes evidence that any gods exist?- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > > Taxes are evidence that atheists exist. > > > > > > > I'm sure that you believe that. Why should we? > > > > > > > Who needs more evidence that atheists exist? Some supporting evidence > > > > > > for gods would be of more intersest.- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > Well, we offered the Bible as evidence, and you said that it was all > > > > > mythology. > > > > > No, I think you'll find "we" said it was a book, and not what anyone > > > > would call evidence. > > > > > >Then we said, what about the parts that tell of Hezekiah's > > > > > tunnel and the earthen ramp the Assyrian army built over the city wall > > > > > when they took Lachish? Those can still be seen today. > > > > > And we said so what? What does that have to do with the other bits > > > > you're claiming are true. > > > > > > No, Harry > > > > > Potter left from the train station in London to go to wizard's school, > > > > > so the city of London does not exist. > > > > > But I know a man from London. He says that Harry Potter does not > > > > > exist. Atheists do not believe that I know a man from London. > > > > > Tell me how a supporting evidence means anything to an atheist. > > > > > Robert B. Winn > > > > > And then you exhibited willful misinterpretation of everything anyone > > > > said and proceeded to mumble on about fictional characters. > > > > > Al- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > I did not misrepresent anything any atheist said. If they want to try > > > to change a discussion about Hezekiah's tunnel into a discussion of > > > Harry Potter, I will refer back to Harry Potter, but it was not my > > > mistake. > > > Robert B. Winn > > > That's got to be the biggest lie so far. Can you show us a single > > instance in this thread of an atheist saying that every single thing > > in the bible is false? Or an atheist saying that there is no tunnel > > aquaduct roughly where the bible says one was dug? > > No, you can't. Because no-one said it. But you constantly claim that > > you're arguing against people who claim so. > > > Al- Hide quoted text - > > Well, yes, one atheist did say the tunnel was a hoax perpetrated by > Jerusalem tour guides. > Robert B. Winn I can't seem to find that post. Could you provide a reference? Al
From: BuddyThunder on 1 Jul 2008 03:47 rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 30, 12:33 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 29, 1:14 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 29, 12:22 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:50�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jack wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate >>>>>>>>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be >>>>>>>>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals >>>>>>>>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. >>>>>>>>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. >>>>>>>>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? >>>>>>>>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact >>>>>>>>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. >>>>>>>> So? >>>>>>>> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> I never have believed in evolution. I think it is a fable, just as >>>>>>> Paul said it was. >>>>>> Classic, got a scripture for that?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> Yes, we are still on the scripture in Isaiah that says that a tunnel >>>>> was dug as a conduit for water between Gihon spring and the pool of >>>>> Siloam. >>>> Liar. Where did Paul tell you that evolution is a fable? Back up >>>> something. Just one thing...- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound >>> doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves >>> teachers, having itching ears; >>> 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be >>> turned unto fables. >> Well, you tried. >> >> Where does he mention evolution? You claimed that Paul said evolution >> was just a fable. That's an explicit claim, can you back it up? >> >> Maybe the fable he's talking about above is Christianity.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > No a fable is a story where an animal is used with human > characteristics, such as monkeys turning into humans. So no scriptural mention of evolution then. At all. You mean the fable with the talking snake, demon-posessed pigs, unicorn, cud chewing rabbits, etc? Your own logic, once again, has demolished your point. Don't you see it coming?
From: BuddyThunder on 1 Jul 2008 03:50 rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 30, 12:36 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 29, 1:15 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 29, 12:23 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:00�am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 06:47:11 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 9:26�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>> ... >>>>>>>>>>> Well, I was the one who pointed out that the Bible in three books of >>>>>>>>>>> the Old Testament describes the construction of Hezekiah's tunnel. >>>>>>>>>>> Atheists still do not believe Hezekiah's tunnel exists. >>>>>>>>>> And you think London is a myth.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> No, I actually have a friend from London. �He says that Harry Potter >>>>>>>>> does not exist. �I think you should actually consider that >>>>>>>>> possibility. � I know this might be difficult for an atheist to do. >>>>>>>> There is a tunnel called Hezekiah's tunnel. That does not mean that the >>>>>>>> supposed authors of the Bible ever existed or wrote what was claimed >>>>>>>> that they wrote or that what was written ever happened. >>>>>>>> A few random facts in the Bible does not make the Bible true. This has >>>>>>>> been explained to you, so, it appears to me that you are just being >>>>>>>> stiff necked in playing your dishonest game. You mock the God you claim >>>>>>>> to worship with this behavior. Maybe you are just playing Loki. >>>>>>> Well, the tunnel got there some way. Why do you believe the Biblical >>>>>>> account is wrong? >>>>>> Because it's extraordinary supernatural claims are totally unsupported >>>>>> by evidence.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> Well, the Bible says that the Jews took tools and dug the tunnel by >>>>> hand just before the Assyrian seige of Jerusalem in 701 B.C. Why do >>>>> you think that was a supernatural event? The same thing could be done >>>>> today if you could find people wiling to do that much work. >>>> If there's no connection to the supernatural in the account, then why do >>>> you think the supernatural draws any support from it?- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> God does not need support. Do you think God is a politician? >> From this statement I assume you would agree that there is no evidence >> that your god is any better than any others. It sounds like you coulf go >> further and admit that there's no evidence that any gods exist. >> >> If that is so, why do you believe in one?- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, if you had ever read the account of the crucifixion of Christ, > you would know that when his arrest was made, all men forsook him. > This relates back to Old Testament doctrines which allowed only the > high Priest to enter the holy of holies in the temple, signifying that > Christ would have no help in atoning for the sins of mankind, but > would do it alone. That's it? That's your basis for belief? Didn't it occur to you that the New Testament writers were aware of the prophesies for their messiah, so wrote the Jesus character in such a way as to satisfy them? They were only partially successful as it turned out, as evidenced by the continued strength of Judaism.
From: BuddyThunder on 1 Jul 2008 03:52 Dogmantic Pyrrhonist (AKA Al) wrote: > On Jul 1, 10:31 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >> On Jun 30, 2:57�pm, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >> >>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message news:deedcfe4-50c8-4aba-9a1f- >>>> I am still in the religion I was born in. �I picked the religion I am in >>>> before I >>>> was born. >>>> Robert B. Winn >>> Probably the most idiotic thing you have ever said. >>> Go on, I dare you try and explain this statement without looking like the >>> fool you are. >>> -- >>> Steve O >> Jeremiah chapter 1. >> Robert B. Winn > > That's Jeremiah the Bullfrog Heh heh, good buddy of mine, knows his wine.
From: BuddyThunder on 1 Jul 2008 04:03
rbwinn wrote: > On Jun 30, 12:45 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 29, 2:11 pm, The Natural Philosopher <a...(a)b.c> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 27, 6:54�pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: >>>>>> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >>>>>> news:93faee1e-7aa9-4f18-b761-3a585ebcbaf0(a)v1g2000pra.googlegroups.com... >>>>>> On Jun 26, 5:05 am, RobertL <robertml...(a)yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>>>> On Jun 26, 4:48 am, rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Jun 25, 7:27?pm, "Smiler" <Smi...(a)Joe.King.com> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Actually, you ought to consider the consequences of a proof by God >>>>>>>>>> that he does not exist. >>>>>>>>> If that were to happen, people would have no choice except to believe >>>>>>>>> in God. >>>>>>>>> Why should anyone believe in a proven non-existent god? >>>>>>>> Proven by whom? >>>>>> By god himself! >>>>>>> A proof is a proof; it doesn't matter who proved it. >>>>>>> Robert >>>>>> Well, if there was no one who proved it, and nothing was proven, then >>>>>> it did not happen. >>>>>> ----------------------------------- >>>>>> Just like your bible stories. >>>>> Well, I believed in the story of Hezekiah's tunnel being dug, and sure >>>>> enough, there is a tunnel there today, just as the Bible says there >>>>> is. How do you explain it? >>>> ER..there was a tunnel? >>>> So what? >>>>> Robert B. Winn- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Well, if there was an atheist anywhere who would admit that the verses >>> of the Bible which describe the construction of the tunnel were true, >>> then we could discuss other verses. As long as atheists claim that >>> Hezekiah's tunnel is a myth, then we will just discuss Hezekiah's >>> tunnel. >> We'll admit that when you admit that there's a magic platform at Kings >> Cross station as described in Harry Potter. >> >> The Bible writers could've been writing fiction about a real place. Why >> do you discount this interpretation of the evidence?- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, war correspondents could have been writing fiction about a real > place when they wrote about the Normandy invasion on D-Day. Once all > the soldiers are dead who made the beachhead, who is to say otherwise? No-one is trying to assert that Hitler is a god. Anyway, that's why it's important to look at independent lines of evidence to establish what really happened. There are many contemporary accounts of the events of D-Day, by correlating and testing them, we can be confident in our history. What independent lines of evidence support the Bible? Your tunnel doesn't help any more than London's existence supports Harry Potter (which we all know is fiction). |