Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: rbwinn on 3 Jul 2008 18:16 On Jul 3, 1:31�pm, "Daniel Mandic" <daniel_man...(a)aon.at> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > One of the rules you have is that no mention be made of the Nazi > > Party. �You atheists are a little sensitive about that. > > Robert B. Winn > > Not in the least.... > > Nazis wrote on their banner 'God with Us', indeed! > > Best regards, > > Daniel Mandic Well, it seems they were mistaken about that. They lost the war. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 3 Jul 2008 18:23 On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- > >>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. > >>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that > >>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom > >>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? > >>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � > >>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, > >>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA > >>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public > >>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? > >>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut > >>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself?  You were the one who thought of > >>>>>>>>>>> it. > >>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can > >>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust.  You decide what you are > >>>>>>>>> going to trust. > >>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful > >>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Fanciful claims?  I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for > >>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam.  Why do you think > >>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? > >>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to > >>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely > >>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a > >>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a > >>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish.  To an atheist > >>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually > >>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just > >>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do.  Since atheists > >>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to > >>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. > >>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it > >>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support > >>>> for any supernatural claims. > >>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well.  The Assyrians came > >>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home > >>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt.  Judea was a little dot in the > >>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to > >>> Egypt.  So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King > >>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah?  Sennacherib > >>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. > >> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > What do you mean so the story goes?  The column erected by Sennacherib > > in Ninevah is still there today.  He plainly says on it that Hezekiah > > paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home > > after he got the money. > > Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't > mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 > troops in a night. > > Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - 186,000 troops. Chaldean historians of the same time said that the Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he erected. He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the army. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 3 Jul 2008 18:27 On Jul 3, 1:57 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 2, 8:39 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 2, 2:14 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 2, 12:44 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 1, 7:08�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:14:36 -0700 (PDT), in alt.atheism > >>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in > >>>>>>>> <f9708904-6500-4209-b487-ab99be5d1...(a)r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:07?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 00:17:22 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 3:58?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:06:02 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 4:12?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:23:58 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 7:07?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:06:07 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi....(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not lie. ?There actually is a conduit for water between Gihon > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spring and the pool of Siloam. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, as you know, that is not the lie I have pointed out to you. You lie > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> here by falsely and intentionally trying to distract us from the lie > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> under discussion. You know that no one imposes abortion in the United > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States. That is another in a long line of lies that you refuse to repent > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Supreme Court and other atheists imposed abortion on the United > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> States. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Abortion is not imposed. You know that. No one is ever forced to have an > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> abortion by our government. Stop lying to us. > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Women have been forced to have abortions in order to get welfare > >>>>>>>>>>>>> assistance. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Citation, please. > >>>>>>>>>>> And our government still recognizes our right to trial by jury, > >>>>>>>>>>> right? > >>>>>>>>>> Nice attempt at distraction, but completely irrelevant. This has > >>>>>>>>>> absolutely nothing to do with women being forced to have abortions in > >>>>>>>>>> order to get welfare assistance. Which is still a completely bogus > >>>>>>>>>> claim on your part. > >>>>>>>>>>> How gullible do you think I am about "our government"? ?Or > >>>>>>>>>>> maybe you are just including atheists when you say "our government". > >>>>>>>>>> I didn't say you were gullible, I said you were lying. Your pathetic > >>>>>>>>>> attempt to change the subject, rather than support your claim, just > >>>>>>>>>> confirms my assessment.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> I personally know one woman who was subjected to governmental > >>>>>>>>> reproduction control. > >>>>>>>> Back up your defamatory claim with some evidence.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Why?  Am I supposed to care whether you believe what I say? > >>>>>> Why bother talking at all then? You know that no-one will listen without > >>>>>> you backing up your claims.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> I do not care whether you listen.  I do not care whether you believe > >>>>> there is a tunnel between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam.  I do > >>>>> not care whether you believe there is an earthen ramp built by the > >>>>> Assyrian army over the wall of the city of Lachish.  The fact that you > >>>>> disbelieve something does not change it.  I believe what I believe. > >>>>> What you are saying is that everyone else believes something different > >>>>> from what I believe, so I should never say what I believe.  First of > >>>>> all, not everyone believes something different from what I believe. > >>>>> Only atheists seem to consistently believe something different. > >>>> No, again you misunderstand me. You're fully entitled to spout off about > >>>> whatever you like, but we're free to think you're another crazy > >>>> god-addled believer until you can come up with some compelling evidence > >>>> that we should take seriously. So far you have some ancient physical > >>>> features that may or may not be the ones mentioned in the Bible. There > >>>> are plenty of other such places in there. None of them show that the > >>>> Bible is anything more than fiction written about some real places. > >>>> The Qu'ran has many such places too. Is that true? > >>>> So, spout away! :-)- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> No, that is not true.  I have read the Quran.  It does not compare > >>> with the Bible in any way except with regard to some names.  I would > >>> classify it as an uninspired writing. > >> But why? The places mentioned there exist, and their stories share some > >> common elements with mainstream history, just like the Bible. You should > >> revere the book as holy!- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > You do not appear to have read the Koran. > > Rather than simply issue a weak denial, can you actually address the > substance of my argument?- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - As I said, you do not appear to have read the Koran. Compared to the Bible it is an uninspired collection of sayings. I cannot remember much that would qualify as what you are trying to say exists in the Koran. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 3 Jul 2008 18:33 On Jul 3, 2:01 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 2, 5:52�pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >> On Wed, 2 Jul 2008 17:26:00 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >> wrote: > > >>> On Jul 2, 2:15�pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 1, 8:49?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 18:14:36 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:07?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 00:17:22 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 3:58?pm, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 00:06:02 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno..com> > >>>>>>>>>> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 4:12?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:23:58 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 7:07?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:06:07 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: > >>>>>>>>>>>> ... > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not lie. ?There actually is a conduit for water between Gihon > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> spring and the pool of Siloam. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> And, as you know, that is not the lie I have pointed out to you. You lie > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> here by falsely and intentionally trying to distract us from the lie > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> under discussion. You know that no one imposes abortion in the United > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> States. That is another in a long line of lies that you refuse to repent > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>> The Supreme Court and other atheists imposed abortion on the United > >>>>>>>>>>>>> States. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Abortion is not imposed. You know that. No one is ever forced to have an > >>>>>>>>>>>> abortion by our government. Stop lying to us. > >>>>>>>>>>> Women have been forced to have abortions in order to get welfare > >>>>>>>>>>> assistance. > >>>>>>>>>> Bullshit. Citation, please. > >>>>>>>>> And our government still recognizes our right to trial by jury, > >>>>>>>>> right? > >>>>>>>> Nice attempt at distraction, but completely irrelevant. This has > >>>>>>>> absolutely nothing to do with women being forced to have abortions in > >>>>>>>> order to get welfare assistance. Which is still a completely bogus > >>>>>>>> claim on your part. > >>>>>>>>> How gullible do you think I am about "our government"? ?Or > >>>>>>>>> maybe you are just including atheists when you say "our government". > >>>>>>>> I didn't say you were gullible, I said you were lying. Your pathetic > >>>>>>>> attempt to change the subject, rather than support your claim, just > >>>>>>>> confirms my assessment. > >>>>>>> I personally know one woman who was subjected to governmental > >>>>>>> reproduction control. > >>>>>> Was she Chinese? Seriously, put up, or shut up. You made a claim; now > >>>>>> either back it up or retract it.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Do atheists have some special program for Chinese women in the United > >>>>> States? �We know they do in China. �However, there are a lot of women > >>>>> in the United States you do not even seem to consider, women in mental > >>>>> institutions, women in prisons, etc., but the one I know personally > >>>>> was just a woman who applied for welfare assistance. > >>>> Playing a slippery game, aren't you Robert? ;-)- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> I am not playing a game. �Atheists run China, and women in China > >>> definitely do get government ordered abortions. �It also happens here > >>> in the United States. > >> Again, bullshit. Provide one *documented* example of it happening in > >> the US. Not an anecdote about some woman you claim to know. Your > >> credibility is zero until you back up your claim.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Well, I would suspect that nothing like that ever gets documented. > > Here in Phoenix a woman went to an abortion clinic, bled to death > > after the doctor went home, and the staff of the abortion clinic put > > her in the trunk of a car.  Strangely, the police discovered when they > > found her body that none of it had been documented.  So we do know > > that sometimes things do not get documented. > > That is kind of sad. You have to do a lot of back-pedalling to try to > square your opinions with some vague notion of reality, don't you!- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Your claim is that no woman in the United States has ever been subjected to reproductive control. I say you are wrong. I personally know a woman who was. So let's talk about China. Do you claim that no women in China have ever been subjected to reproduction control? I believe that you atheists have a plan in place for the entire world, not just the United States and China. Robert B. Winn
From: rbwinn on 3 Jul 2008 18:34
On Jul 3, 2:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 2, 8:42 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 2, 2:17 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 2, 12:45 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 1, 5:00�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: > >>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Jul 2008 07:27:47 -0700 (PDT), in alt.atheism > >>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in > >>>>>>>> <6ec0a32a-3255-47d6-b573-5ace27ba6...(a)26g2000hsk.googlegroups.com>:>On Jul 1, 12:29�am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>> ... > >>>>>>>>>>> No, you didn't. �I told you from the beginning that I was a Vietnam > >>>>>>>>>>> veteran. > >>>>>>>>>> Did you? I don't remember it. > >>>>>>>>>> Your record of lying has not served you well, it was an honestly-held > >>>>>>>>>> suspicion. I have been corrected. See how easy it is to admit that I was > >>>>>>>>>> wrong? > >>>>>>>>> How do you know I was telling the truth about being a Vietnam > >>>>>>>>> veteran? �Do you see how you are getting onto shaky ground here? > >>>>>>>> We don't. We also know that you lie to us all the time. Still, it > >>>>>>>> doesn't matter in this discussion whether you have lied to us about your > >>>>>>>> service in Vietnam or not. Do you have PTSD? > >>>>>>> What they accused me of was paranoid schizophrenia.  At the time I did > >>>>>>> not pay much attention to it until they started to try to kill me with > >>>>>>> tranquilizers.  The reason why I still talk to atheists is because > >>>>>>> they act exactly like people who work in psychiatry. > >>>>>>> They are people who hate me for no reason at all.  That is behavior > >>>>>>> that seems very strange to me. > >>>>>> I don't hate you at all, I just vigourously disagree with you. Actually, > >>>>>> I don't even understand you.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Well, I am sure there were SS concentration camp guards who would say > >>>>> that they did not hate the Jews.  Actions sometimes speak louder than > >>>>> words. > >>>> Do you really think I'm comparable to a Nazi guard? No need to be so > >>>> defensive about your faith, no-one's forcing you to post! No-one's > >>>> forcing you to renounce your faith. Easy tiger, it ain't that bad! > >>>> I've even tried to be nice, but it's hard when you're being unfairly > >>>> compared to Nazis.- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> All people who have ever lived can be compared to Nazis.  Some are > >>> worse than Nazis, some are better than Nazis.  Why would it bother you > >>> to be compared to Nazis?  I would not bother me.  I am nothing like > >>> any Nazi. > >> Then why make a meaningless comparrison like that? Except to dishonestly > >> smear your opponent by association. That's what religion has reduced you > >> to, and I think that's sad.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Wonderful.  Plus, atheists have forbidden mention of the Nazi Party. > > Where is that forbidden, liar? Please stop lying, you're embarassing > yourself, but don't seem to know it! > > Maybe if you made your bigotry conform more closely to reality? ...- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - Whenever someone mentions the Nazi Party, atheists always say, That is a violation of Godwin's law. Robert B. Winn |