Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
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From: Steve O on 6 Jul 2008 05:46 "rbwinn" <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> wrote in message news:e765a085-e079-4808-aa79-7244fc499d79(a)25g2000hsx.googlegroups.com... > On Jul 5, 3:53�am, "Alex W." <ing...(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >> "rbwinn" <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in message >> >> news:62956527-c824-415d-93ab-cdbf47127a02(a)k30g2000hse.googlegroups.com... >> On Jul 4, 9:37 am, "Steve O" <nospamh...(a)thanks.com> wrote: >> >> > For the umpteenth time, we cannot tell Jesus anything. >> > If he existed at all, he died nearly 2,000 years ago. >> > Apart from an alleged brief visit shortly afterward, he hasn't been >> > seen >> > since. >> > How can we tell him anything, huh? >> >> > - Show quoted text - >> >> Well, it is called prayer. �Christians are commanded to pray. >> >> ==================== >> >> And you're sure your prayer gets through ... even though no-one in the >> history of Christian prayer has ever answered. �You know, if I dial a >> number >> and get no connection, I may try a few more times, but sooner or later I >> realise that there's no phone at the other end .... > > Well, mine get answered. What made you think they were not? > Robert B. Winn You're confusion in just about everything leads us to that conclusion. Ever had a prayer that hasn't been answered?? No wait, I get it, you'll probably tell me it has always been answered, but not in the way you wanted. We hear that all of the time. Classic example of self-deception. -- Steve O a.a. #2240 (Apatheist Chapter) B.A.A.W.A. Convicted by Earthquack Exempt from purgatory by papal indulgence
From: Mark K. Bilbo on 5 Jul 2008 22:16 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself? You were the one who thought of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust. You decide what you are >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims? I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam. Why do you think >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely >>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a >>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a >>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish. To an atheist >>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually >>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just >>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do. Since atheists >>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to >>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. >>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it >>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support >>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. >>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well. The Assyrians came >>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home >>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt. Judea was a little dot in the >>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to >>>>>>>>>>> Egypt. So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King >>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah? Sennacherib >>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. >>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes? The column erected by Sennacherib >>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today. He plainly says on it that Hezekiah >>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home >>>>>>>>> after he got the money. >>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't >>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 >>>>>>>> troops in a night. >>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> 186,000 troops. Chaldean historians of the same time said that the >>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and >>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. >>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he >>>>>>> erected. He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the >>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons >>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the >>>>>>> army. >>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides >>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever >>>>> against the Assyrians. But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian >>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life. So I would say, let >>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it >>>>> their way. The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord >>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops. That is a matter of record. It is >>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. >>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests >>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of >>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is >>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old >>> Testament, but it says what it says. It says in three different >>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians >>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. >> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of >> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time > unless you are talking about the earth. Then you insist on absolute > time. > Robert B. Winn Huh, still stupid after all these years...
From: Alex W. on 6 Jul 2008 08:17 "Smiler" <Smiler(a)Joe.King.com> wrote in message news:noTbk.167960$8k.30408(a)newsfe18.ams2... > > "Alex W." <ingilt(a)yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message > news:6d91ovF1ehh1U1(a)mid.individual.net... >> >> "Smiler" <Smiler(a)Joe.King.com> wrote in message >> news:Byybk.192914$NN3.190983(a)newsfe08.ams2... >> >> >>> ------------------------------- >>> Ho! <whack> >>> >> >> Wacking Day already? > > I'm fed up his lies and insults. > If we all answer in the same manner, maybe he'll go away. > Plonking him is no solution. That just means there's less opposition to > his lies. "Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" SCNR.
From: Alex W. on 6 Jul 2008 08:20 "rbwinn" <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> wrote in message news:b9d055c5-7a5b-4534-9703-63f1e75e9648(a)56g2000hsm.googlegroups.com... Your spirit is made of spirit. You cannot transplant it. ======= There is always possession ....
From: rbwinn on 6 Jul 2008 09:46
On Jul 6, 12:44 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > rbwinn wrote: > > On Jul 5, 2:31 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >> rbwinn wrote: > >>> On Jul 5, 2:42 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>> On Jul 4, 3:22 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>> On Jul 3, 11:28 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>> On Jul 3, 1:55 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 8:35 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 2, 2:03 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 11:59 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 1:04 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jul 1, 12:20 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net..nz> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 1:19�pm, Enkidu <fox_rgf...(a)trashmail.net> wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> wrote in news:22183802-cf28-4305-af11- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 7d254b106...(a)d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com: > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You are the one being deliberately obtuse. � The existence of the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel validates many other things said in the Bible about the > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Assyrian invasion of Judea. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "The Hobbit" talks of ale, axes, and forests which we know exist. Does that > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> validate Orcs, Elves, Dwarves, trolls, magic rings, walking trees and Tom > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bombadil? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Enkidu AA#2165 � > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> EAC Chaplain and ordained minister, > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ULC, Modesto, CA > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn't anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> schools, or health insurance for all? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> � � �-Kurt Vonnegut > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you decide for yourself?  You were the one who thought of > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> it. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Why don't you try to defend your assertions? How can we know we can > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> trust what you say?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It does not matter to me what you trust.  You decide what you are > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to trust. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can't provide any sensible reason to believe your fanciful > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> claims, then I guess we're done.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fanciful claims?  I said that the Jews dug a tunnel as a conduit for > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> water between Gihon spring and the pool of Siloam.  Why do you think > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that is a fanciful claim? > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That is not a fanciful claim. You and I both know that I'm referring to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> your supernatural claims. Those would be the ones you're completely > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> unable to support with any evidence.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not made any claims to atheists except that the Jews dug a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> tunnel to be used as a conduit for water, and the Assyrians built a > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ramp out of dirt to get over the city wall at Lachish.  To an atheist > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> these might seem like supernatural claims because there were actually > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> people working to accomplish both of these tasks instead of just > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> giving orders, criticism, etc., the way atheists do.  Since atheists > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have been unable to visualize these two events, there is no reason to > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> proceed on to anything more complex. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Then we're in total agreement. A tunnel was dug a long time ago and it > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> got mentioned in some ancient writings, providing absolutlely no support > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> for any supernatural claims. > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> So why all the posts?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>>> You do not seem to be visualizing it very well.  The Assyrians came > >>>>>>>>>>>>> into Judea with an army of hundreds of thousands on their way home > >>>>>>>>>>>>> after taking a big chunk of Egypt.  Judea was a little dot in the > >>>>>>>>>>>>> middle of the Assyrian kingdom, which extended from the Caspian Sea to > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Egypt.  So why was there still a Kingdom of Judea when King > >>>>>>>>>>>>> Sennacherib got back to his capitol city of Ninevah?  Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>>>>>> himself says there was on the column he had erected in Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>>>>> Or so the story goes.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean so the story goes?  The column erected by Sennacherib > >>>>>>>>>>> in Ninevah is still there today.  He plainly says on it that Hezekiah > >>>>>>>>>>> paid tribute to him, and he was such a nice guy that he just went home > >>>>>>>>>>> after he got the money. > >>>>>>>>>> Great. Sennacherib went home and left Jerusalem unsacked. That doesn't > >>>>>>>>>> mean that it was due to the angel of the lord slaughtering 185,000 > >>>>>>>>>> troops in a night. > >>>>>>>>>> Why do you favour the oddly magical Biblical account over Sennacherib's?- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>>>> 186,000 troops.  Chaldean historians of the same time said that the > >>>>>>>>> Assyrian army died of plague while besieging Jerusalem, and > >>>>>>>>> Sennacherib fled in great fear back to his own city of Ninevah. > >>>>>>>>> Sennacherib made no mention of losing his army on the column he > >>>>>>>>> erected.  He seems to have pretended to his fellow Assyrians that the > >>>>>>>>> army was still somewhere doing something, but his own two sons > >>>>>>>>> murdered him, probably because they were upset about him losing the > >>>>>>>>> army. > >>>>>>>> So where are God's footprints in all of this? Arguments for both sides > >>>>>>>> can be made without invoking magic.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>>>> Well, from a military standpoint, the Jews had no chance whatsoever > >>>>>>> against the Assyrians.  But when it was all over, it was the Assyrian > >>>>>>> king who lost everything, including his own life.  So I would say, let > >>>>>>> atheists of today explain it their way, and let Christians explain it > >>>>>>> their way.  The Jews explained it by saying that an angel of the Lord > >>>>>>> killed 186,000 Assyrian troops.  That is a matter of record.  It is > >>>>>>> recorded in three different books of the Old Testament. > >>>>>> The Old Testament isn't particularly compelling evidence, it suggests > >>>>>> that there was a global flood and special creation over the course of > >>>>>> six days. It might be a "matter of record" on some things, but it is > >>>>>> definitely not on others.- Hide quoted text - > >>>>>> - Show quoted text - > >>>>> Well, I am sure the Jews feel bad that you do not like the Old > >>>>> Testament, but it says what it says.  It says in three different > >>>>> books that an angel of the Lord went through the camp of the Assyrians > >>>>> and slew 186,000 soldiers. > >>>> It also says that the universe was created a handful of thousands of > >>>> years ago. The Bible is not reliable.- Hide quoted text - > >>>> - Show quoted text - > >>> Well, as I said before, you atheists believe in relativity of time > >>> unless you are talking about the earth.  Then you insist on absolute > >>> time. > >> Instead you make some ridiculous claims about the relativity of time > >> completely without evidential basis, or... any rational support at all.. > >> The Earth is older than 6500 thousand years old. Much older. I'll go > >> with the many independent lines of verification on that one.- Hide quoted text - > > >> - Show quoted text - > > > Well, that is fine, but why is relativity of time something that > > exists except when talking about the earth? > > Because Earth isn't travelling at near light speed. I'm no physicist but....- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - So what makes you believe that motion is the only factor that would affect time? Robert B. Winn |