Does God need to prove He exists?
in [Physics]
|
From: raven1 on 1 Jul 2008 16:14 On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:45:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwinn3(a)juno.com> wrote: >On Jun 29, 9:46?am, raven1 <quoththera...(a)nevermore.com> wrote: >> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:23:07 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >> wrote: >> >> >No, I do not have difficulty following conversations. ?Atheists said >> >that there was nothing in the Bible that could be proven. >> >> No atheist claims such a ridiculous thing. Obviously there are things >> in the Bible that can be proven. It is trivial, for example to >> demonstrate the existence of the city of Jerusalem, so I don't know >> why you're so insistent on the existence of a particular tunnel being >> significant. >> >> What atheists state cannot be proven are any of the *supernatural* >> claims in the Bible. Just as the historical existence of Troy does not >> prove that Eris, the goddess of chaos, rolled a golden apple inscribed >> "To the fairest" into a banquet on Olympus to set the events in motion >> that resulted in the Trojan War, the historical existence of Jerusalem >> does not prove that Jesus was crucified there and rose from the dead. >> What you think your tunnel might possibly prove I can't even begin to >> guess. >> >> > I said that >> >three books of the Old Testament describe the construction of >> >Hezekiah's tunnel, and sure enough, there is a tunnel right where the >> >Bible says there is. >> >> Again, so what? >> >> > ?Atheists say, That does not prove there was a >> >tunnel dug where the Bible says there was because atheists do not >> >believe anything in the Bible. >> >> Poppycock. I doubt there's an atheist on the planet who will deny the >> historical existence of Jerusalem, Pontius Pilate, Herod, or any >> number of other things mentioned in the Bible. >> >> > So far that has been the extent of >> >this conversation. >> >> The extent of the conversation has been you continuing to miss the >> point that the fact that the Bible mentions some cities and historical >> figures that actually existed is irrelevant to the truth or falsity of >> its other claims. That Bethlehem exists says nothing about whether >> Jesus was born there and laid in a manger wrapped in swaddling >> clothes. > >Well, you claim to believe in Jerusalem even though it is mentioned in >the Bible. So why is it so impossible for an atheist to admit the >existence of Hezekiah's tunnel? How should I know? I'm willing to accept that such a thing exists, although I'm baffled as to what possible significance you might attach to its existence.
From: BuddyThunder on 1 Jul 2008 16:14 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 1, 12:34 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 30, 12:25 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 28, 6:06�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:26:59 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:50?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jack wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate >>>>>>>>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be >>>>>>>>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals >>>>>>>>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. >>>>>>>>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. >>>>>>>>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? >>>>>>>>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact >>>>>>>>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. >>>>>>>> So? >>>>>>>> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> I never have believed in evolution. �I think it is a fable, just as >>>>>>> Paul said it was. >>>>>> Paul knew nothing about it. You mock the Bible with such silly >>>>>> interpretations of it.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> I just believe what Paul said. You seem a little upset that I do not >>>>> believe your fable. >>>> Can you please identify what he said about it? Please?- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> 2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound >>> doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves >>> teachers, having itching ears; >>> 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be >>> turned unto fables. >> I can't see any mention of evolution. I can't even see any description >> of the theory, or even a theistic strawman description. Can you help me >> out? You made a claim that seems difficult to substantiate.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, I think we are getting into subject matter that is too difficult > for you. Maybe we should go back to Hezekiah's tunnel. I'm not struggling, maybe you could point out the verse where evolution is singled out. Maybe he's talking about the germ theory of disease. I'm sure you believe that demons are behind illness, rather than pathogens.
From: BuddyThunder on 1 Jul 2008 16:15 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 1, 12:34 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 30, 12:25 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 28, 6:06�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 17:26:59 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:50?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jack wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate >>>>>>>>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. >>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be >>>>>>>>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals >>>>>>>>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. >>>>>>>>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. >>>>>>>>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? >>>>>>>>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact >>>>>>>>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. >>>>>>>> So? >>>>>>>> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> I never have believed in evolution. �I think it is a fable, just as >>>>>>> Paul said it was. >>>>>> Paul knew nothing about it. You mock the Bible with such silly >>>>>> interpretations of it.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> I just believe what Paul said. You seem a little upset that I do not >>>>> believe your fable. >>>> Can you please identify what he said about it? Please?- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> 2 Tim 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound >>> doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves >>> teachers, having itching ears; >>> 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be >>> turned unto fables. >> I can't see any mention of evolution. I can't even see any description >> of the theory, or even a theistic strawman description. Can you help me >> out? You made a claim that seems difficult to substantiate.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Certainly. This is easy to resolve. Just wait until after the > resurrection, and ask Paul in person what he was writing about. As has been said: silly troll.
From: BuddyThunder on 1 Jul 2008 16:16 rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 1, 12:39 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 30, 1:15 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 29, 9:57�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 15:42:19 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>> On Jun 29, 8:48?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 07:48:40 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 12:22?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:50?pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jack wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact >>>>>>>>>>>>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. >>>>>>>>>>>> So? >>>>>>>>>>>> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> I never have believed in evolution. ?I think it is a fable, just as >>>>>>>>>>> Paul said it was. >>>>>>>>>> Classic, got a scripture for that?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> Yes, we are still on the scripture in Isaiah that says that a tunnel >>>>>>>>> was dug as a conduit for water between Gihon spring and the pool of >>>>>>>>> Siloam. >>>>>>>> So, where is the evidence that the entire story is correct? The tunnel, >>>>>>>> as you know, is not evidence that the story is correct.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Well, so you are still taking the position that there is no tunnel. >>>>>> Liar. >>>>> How long will ye halt between two opinions? Multitudes, multitudes in >>>>> the valley of decision, for the day of the Lord is near in the valley >>>>> of decision. >>>> 2000 years away kind of close? ;-P- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> It was close for those who made the right decision. >> Did we miss the rapture?! Seems to me that Christ's return ain't any >> closer for you lot than it is for us.- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > Well, according to the book of Revelation, it is. The first > resurrection occurs at the beginning of the millenium. The > resurrection of the unjust occurs at the end of the millenium. So > that would make it a thousand years closer for me. Just because I apparently won't be involved, it's still just as close for me as you. But don't let your coffee get cold waiting.
From: BuddyThunder on 1 Jul 2008 16:17
rbwinn wrote: > On Jul 1, 12:47 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >> rbwinn wrote: >>> On Jun 30, 12:33 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>> On Jun 29, 1:14 pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>> On Jun 29, 12:22 am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:50�pm, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 12:11:54 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 7:17?am, Free Lunch <lu...(a)nofreelunch.us> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 07:05:42 -0700 (PDT), rbwinn <rbwi...(a)juno.com> >>>>>>>>>>>> wrote in alt.atheism: >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 28, 12:26?am, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> rbwinn wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Jun 27, 6:42?pm, BuddyThunder <nos...(a)paradise.net.nz> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jack wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I am upset by *people* who >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe that the Bible is anything more than mythology and try ?to impose >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> their >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beliefs on me ?using the Bible as evidence. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> How can someone impose a belief on you? ?Just believe whatever you want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> believe. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The wrong part is when people attempt to use the myth to formulate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public policy or indoctrinate children or inform foreign policy. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, actually they use fables. ?The apostles Paul said they would be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turned to fables in the last days. ?A fable is a story about animals >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like the story about monkeys turning into humans. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wow, you're ignorant about evolution. Colour me surprised. >>>>>>>>>>>>> In what way am I ignorant about evolution? >>>>>>>>>>>> Monkeys and humans do share a common ancestor. Your denial of the fact >>>>>>>>>>>> does not change that fact.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>>>> Charles Darwin was not my ancestor. >>>>>>>>>> So? >>>>>>>>>> Evolution happens. Learn to deal with reality.- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>>>> I never have believed in evolution. I think it is a fable, just as >>>>>>>>> Paul said it was. >>>>>>>> Classic, got a scripture for that?- Hide quoted text - >>>>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>>>> Yes, we are still on the scripture in Isaiah that says that a tunnel >>>>>>> was dug as a conduit for water between Gihon spring and the pool of >>>>>>> Siloam. >>>>>> Liar. Where did Paul tell you that evolution is a fable? Back up >>>>>> something. Just one thing...- Hide quoted text - >>>>>> - Show quoted text - >>>>> 2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound >>>>> doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves >>>>> teachers, having itching ears; >>>>> 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be >>>>> turned unto fables. >>>> Well, you tried. >>>> Where does he mention evolution? You claimed that Paul said evolution >>>> was just a fable. That's an explicit claim, can you back it up? >>>> Maybe the fable he's talking about above is Christianity.- Hide quoted text - >>>> - Show quoted text - >>> No a fable is a story where an animal is used with human >>> characteristics, such as monkeys turning into humans. >> So no scriptural mention of evolution then. At all. >> >> You mean the fable with the talking snake, demon-posessed pigs, unicorn, >> cud chewing rabbits, etc? Your own logic, once again, has demolished >> your point. Don't you see it coming?- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text - > > You may doubt some of these things, but if you will read the account > of Balaam and his donkey, I am sure you will be more inclined to > believe. Really, really not. Sounds like a fable with animals having human characteristics to me. And not in any sensible, evidence-supported way! |